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	<title>Comments on: The kettle black</title>
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	<link>http://www.topofthemountains.net/2006/05/04/the-kettle-black/</link>
	<description>"Hitch your wagon to a star." —Ralph Waldo Emerson</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 08:51:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://www.topofthemountains.net/2006/05/04/the-kettle-black/#comment-29429</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Mar 2007 22:47:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.topofthemountains.net/2006/05/04/the-kettle-black/#comment-29429</guid>
		<description>Julia has posted &lt;a href="http://wherehasmymindgone.blogspot.com/2007/03/censorship.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;a response&lt;/a&gt; to this. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Julia has posted <a href="http://wherehasmymindgone.blogspot.com/2007/03/censorship.html" rel="nofollow">a response</a> to this. :)</p>
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		<title>By: Top of the Mountains &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Monkey see, monkey do</title>
		<link>http://www.topofthemountains.net/2006/05/04/the-kettle-black/#comment-3207</link>
		<dc:creator>Top of the Mountains &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Monkey see, monkey do</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Aug 2006 23:49:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.topofthemountains.net/2006/05/04/the-kettle-black/#comment-3207</guid>
		<description>[...] As for myself, I try to pick up on clues from the book cover text or Amazon reviews or LibraryThing discussions that will give hints as to whether something is inappropriate or not. It&#8217;s not perfect, but when I find a book that&#8217;s bad (in my view, of course; we&#8217;ve already talked censorship through :)), I close it and return it to the library. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] As for myself, I try to pick up on clues from the book cover text or Amazon reviews or LibraryThing discussions that will give hints as to whether something is inappropriate or not. It&#8217;s not perfect, but when I find a book that&#8217;s bad (in my view, of course; we&#8217;ve already talked censorship through :)), I close it and return it to the library. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://www.topofthemountains.net/2006/05/04/the-kettle-black/#comment-2965</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Jul 2006 09:37:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.topofthemountains.net/2006/05/04/the-kettle-black/#comment-2965</guid>
		<description>I must agree with Shaun here. Our particular political system is set up (regardless of how the BoM peoples set up theirs) so that neither the majority can silence and oppress the minority nor can a minority (even if the minority are in office!) use violence or guilt to silence the majority. In a pure democracy, whatever &#62; 50% of the people say is law, regardless of whether they decide "All Jews shall be murdered" or "No one may eat cold-cuts on even numbered Tuesdays". The Founders thus set up a constitutional republic.

Amendment the First
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. 

I am always frustrated, whether in spiritual or in legal issues, about the fact that we seldom go to the sources to decide what is correct and why. The spiritual source for answers to this discussion would be, for instance, Doctrine and Covenants 121:46-end.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I must agree with Shaun here. Our particular political system is set up (regardless of how the BoM peoples set up theirs) so that neither the majority can silence and oppress the minority nor can a minority (even if the minority are in office!) use violence or guilt to silence the majority. In a pure democracy, whatever &gt; 50% of the people say is law, regardless of whether they decide &#8220;All Jews shall be murdered&#8221; or &#8220;No one may eat cold-cuts on even numbered Tuesdays&#8221;. The Founders thus set up a constitutional republic.</p>
<p>Amendment the First<br />
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. </p>
<p>I am always frustrated, whether in spiritual or in legal issues, about the fact that we seldom go to the sources to decide what is correct and why. The spiritual source for answers to this discussion would be, for instance, Doctrine and Covenants 121:46-end.</p>
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		<title>By: Shaun</title>
		<link>http://www.topofthemountains.net/2006/05/04/the-kettle-black/#comment-733</link>
		<dc:creator>Shaun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 May 2006 21:51:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.topofthemountains.net/2006/05/04/the-kettle-black/#comment-733</guid>
		<description>The majority isn't necessarily the group that holds the most people, but the group that holds the most power.  Thus vocal minorities often over-ride majorities.  And after the cartoons were published, just about every western government, including the US (much to my dismay), denounced the cartoons and it's almost certain that if it were tried again that it would be halted in its tracks.  

The fear generated by the protests and riots from the Islamic world caused some of the most pro-democratic countries to state that the cartoons should not have been published.  Even the Danish government copped-out by saying they have no influence over the private sector (rather than re-affirming the paper's right to print them).  Counter this with much milder protests from other religions and groups when unflattering political cartoons were published about them.   Time and again it was plainly stated there was no case because it was well covered in freedom of speech.

I don't intend to come down on Islam, it's just an example of a group that's willing to exercise force, like China, to force public opinion.  In both cases they are permitted to wield enough power to influence what is deemed right or wrong even though they do not reflect the opinion of the population as a whole.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The majority isn&#8217;t necessarily the group that holds the most people, but the group that holds the most power.  Thus vocal minorities often over-ride majorities.  And after the cartoons were published, just about every western government, including the US (much to my dismay), denounced the cartoons and it&#8217;s almost certain that if it were tried again that it would be halted in its tracks.  </p>
<p>The fear generated by the protests and riots from the Islamic world caused some of the most pro-democratic countries to state that the cartoons should not have been published.  Even the Danish government copped-out by saying they have no influence over the private sector (rather than re-affirming the paper&#8217;s right to print them).  Counter this with much milder protests from other religions and groups when unflattering political cartoons were published about them.   Time and again it was plainly stated there was no case because it was well covered in freedom of speech.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t intend to come down on Islam, it&#8217;s just an example of a group that&#8217;s willing to exercise force, like China, to force public opinion.  In both cases they are permitted to wield enough power to influence what is deemed right or wrong even though they do not reflect the opinion of the population as a whole.</p>
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		<title>By: Liz</title>
		<link>http://www.topofthemountains.net/2006/05/04/the-kettle-black/#comment-725</link>
		<dc:creator>Liz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 May 2006 03:59:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.topofthemountains.net/2006/05/04/the-kettle-black/#comment-725</guid>
		<description>Interesting opinon.  However, your two counter examples to censorship by overwhelming majority are invalid. China's censorship is a government program, not something decided on by the people.  It's the kind of censorship we've all agreed is wrong.  And the Danish newspaper cartoons are actually an example of how the system does work: even though some of the population found the cartoons very offensive (and would have censored them if they could), because the majority did not find them directly harmful, the opinions were allowed to be expressed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting opinon.  However, your two counter examples to censorship by overwhelming majority are invalid. China&#8217;s censorship is a government program, not something decided on by the people.  It&#8217;s the kind of censorship we&#8217;ve all agreed is wrong.  And the Danish newspaper cartoons are actually an example of how the system does work: even though some of the population found the cartoons very offensive (and would have censored them if they could), because the majority did not find them directly harmful, the opinions were allowed to be expressed.</p>
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		<title>By: Shaun</title>
		<link>http://www.topofthemountains.net/2006/05/04/the-kettle-black/#comment-722</link>
		<dc:creator>Shaun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 May 2006 06:24:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.topofthemountains.net/2006/05/04/the-kettle-black/#comment-722</guid>
		<description>In general, I'm in favor on erring on the side of not censoring.  The greatest part about censorship is that voices that are poorly organized and defended simply do not get listened to.  One only needs spend about ten minutes going through the average blog to see that their literary and communication skills are so lacking that they could never develop a serious position of influence unless they improve their skills.  It seems to me that this is where the greatest concentration of "much" is and within it are sown the seeds of its own destruction.

But what about the more articulate?  Well, that's tough.  As has been pointed out, making a call on an author's intent isn't easy and even if it is somewhat malicious, does not someone have the right to express displeasure over another?  The courts have repeatedly ruled in favor of the offending party rather than hitting them with libel or slander.  We need to be responsible enough to sift out what looks to be untruthful or hurtful remarks.

     Even using society's opinion on good/bad isn't a wise idea, I think.  For one thing, society varies vastly from area to area, country to country, and region to region.  In communist China, anything published or spoken that might be construed as against the ruling government can have serious, even life-threatening consequences.  Publishing political cartoons in Denmark depicting the prophet Mohammed can result in riots in Europe and the Middle East with murders, burning of embassies, and boycotts.

     Getting caught up in defining what is good or bad is too cumbersome for a heterogeneous society.  Even movie ratings have been noted to be fickle and deciding on a movie solely on its rating may not be the best criterion for a decision.  

     For example, what about some war movies, or movies intended to raise awareness of a reality?  Gratuitous violence, sex, language, etc. are pointless to me, but there is a wide range of definitions on what gratuitous is.  I remember watching the scene from "Saving Private Ryan" that captures D-Day, the storming of Normandy Beach.  This was definitely one of the reasons the movie was rated R.  I admit I was sickened by the blood and carnage I saw, literally to my stomach.  

     At first I was upset at seeing it, but then I thought about it.  To that point in my life, war and its horrors were only an intellectual concept for me.  Killing is bad, war is not good, etc. etc.  But at that point, I experienced something one step closer to the real thing.  I realized and understood on a whole new level just what war is and can do to a person.  It's something I can't describe.  

     Immediately after watching it, I wished I hadn't.  However, now I'm not so sure.  I had a similar experience with "Saints and Soldiers".  The violence was literally sickening, but it had a valuable lesson for me and I came to a better understanding, something I could never have done otherwise.  It changed me.

     So even from what might at first seem to be a thing purely of spite or evil, one can glean something of value.  Everyone has a responsibility for what they say and do, but even after that, everyone has a responsibility to take what they see &#38; hear and think about it and evaluate it.  No one can force you to agree with, enjoy, or continue to engage in an idea or concept.  I think we should first censor ourselves, and then decide for ourselves what we will and will not give credence to and let everyone else do the same.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In general, I&#8217;m in favor on erring on the side of not censoring.  The greatest part about censorship is that voices that are poorly organized and defended simply do not get listened to.  One only needs spend about ten minutes going through the average blog to see that their literary and communication skills are so lacking that they could never develop a serious position of influence unless they improve their skills.  It seems to me that this is where the greatest concentration of &#8220;much&#8221; is and within it are sown the seeds of its own destruction.</p>
<p>But what about the more articulate?  Well, that&#8217;s tough.  As has been pointed out, making a call on an author&#8217;s intent isn&#8217;t easy and even if it is somewhat malicious, does not someone have the right to express displeasure over another?  The courts have repeatedly ruled in favor of the offending party rather than hitting them with libel or slander.  We need to be responsible enough to sift out what looks to be untruthful or hurtful remarks.</p>
<p>     Even using society&#8217;s opinion on good/bad isn&#8217;t a wise idea, I think.  For one thing, society varies vastly from area to area, country to country, and region to region.  In communist China, anything published or spoken that might be construed as against the ruling government can have serious, even life-threatening consequences.  Publishing political cartoons in Denmark depicting the prophet Mohammed can result in riots in Europe and the Middle East with murders, burning of embassies, and boycotts.</p>
<p>     Getting caught up in defining what is good or bad is too cumbersome for a heterogeneous society.  Even movie ratings have been noted to be fickle and deciding on a movie solely on its rating may not be the best criterion for a decision.  </p>
<p>     For example, what about some war movies, or movies intended to raise awareness of a reality?  Gratuitous violence, sex, language, etc. are pointless to me, but there is a wide range of definitions on what gratuitous is.  I remember watching the scene from &#8220;Saving Private Ryan&#8221; that captures D-Day, the storming of Normandy Beach.  This was definitely one of the reasons the movie was rated R.  I admit I was sickened by the blood and carnage I saw, literally to my stomach.  </p>
<p>     At first I was upset at seeing it, but then I thought about it.  To that point in my life, war and its horrors were only an intellectual concept for me.  Killing is bad, war is not good, etc. etc.  But at that point, I experienced something one step closer to the real thing.  I realized and understood on a whole new level just what war is and can do to a person.  It&#8217;s something I can&#8217;t describe.  </p>
<p>     Immediately after watching it, I wished I hadn&#8217;t.  However, now I&#8217;m not so sure.  I had a similar experience with &#8220;Saints and Soldiers&#8221;.  The violence was literally sickening, but it had a valuable lesson for me and I came to a better understanding, something I could never have done otherwise.  It changed me.</p>
<p>     So even from what might at first seem to be a thing purely of spite or evil, one can glean something of value.  Everyone has a responsibility for what they say and do, but even after that, everyone has a responsibility to take what they see &amp; hear and think about it and evaluate it.  No one can force you to agree with, enjoy, or continue to engage in an idea or concept.  I think we should first censor ourselves, and then decide for ourselves what we will and will not give credence to and let everyone else do the same.</p>
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		<title>By: Liz</title>
		<link>http://www.topofthemountains.net/2006/05/04/the-kettle-black/#comment-717</link>
		<dc:creator>Liz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 May 2006 22:42:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.topofthemountains.net/2006/05/04/the-kettle-black/#comment-717</guid>
		<description>Oh, and the idea I was trying to convey by intent is this: free discussion of ideas should be allowed, but when materials clearly advocate harmful action, they should be censored.  Thus, it's like what you're saying.  They must actually be taking action (via words) towards a crime.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, and the idea I was trying to convey by intent is this: free discussion of ideas should be allowed, but when materials clearly advocate harmful action, they should be censored.  Thus, it&#8217;s like what you&#8217;re saying.  They must actually be taking action (via words) towards a crime.</p>
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		<title>By: Liz</title>
		<link>http://www.topofthemountains.net/2006/05/04/the-kettle-black/#comment-716</link>
		<dc:creator>Liz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 May 2006 22:39:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.topofthemountains.net/2006/05/04/the-kettle-black/#comment-716</guid>
		<description>Sean - You are still being very general.  The examples you give are, for the most part, not decreases in liberty.  Liberty and entitlement are not opposites, so I don't see how entitlement programs can decrease freedom.  (If you wanted to talk about a decrease in responsibility, then I can see your point.)  Taxation is a possibility, but it's not really a decrease in freedom so much as a change in rules.  With commerce and education, you'll have to be more specific.  As I see it, liberty has increased in both areas.  Maybe you are equating decrease in freedom with an increase in bureaucracy, which I also don't agree is equivalent. . . .  Can I get any specific examples?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sean - You are still being very general.  The examples you give are, for the most part, not decreases in liberty.  Liberty and entitlement are not opposites, so I don&#8217;t see how entitlement programs can decrease freedom.  (If you wanted to talk about a decrease in responsibility, then I can see your point.)  Taxation is a possibility, but it&#8217;s not really a decrease in freedom so much as a change in rules.  With commerce and education, you&#8217;ll have to be more specific.  As I see it, liberty has increased in both areas.  Maybe you are equating decrease in freedom with an increase in bureaucracy, which I also don&#8217;t agree is equivalent. . . .  Can I get any specific examples?</p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://www.topofthemountains.net/2006/05/04/the-kettle-black/#comment-710</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 May 2006 23:30:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.topofthemountains.net/2006/05/04/the-kettle-black/#comment-710</guid>
		<description>Liz, the unfortunate trend I speak of is decreasing liberty. Over the past 100 years, we have seen a rise in compulsion and a retreat in freedom. I have no big complaints with current freedom of speech in general; I'm talking more about things like the rise of entitlement programs and increased taxation (the USA didn't even have an income tax until 1913), the state of education, and commerce, to mention a few. 

I agree there should be a common denominator of decency in censorship. What I disagreed with is using intent as the standard. I'm not a lawyer, but I think intent as you have discussed above is different from an author's intent. In conspiring to commit a crime, aa person must actually do something (meet, discuss, plan the crime) before it is a crime. In defamation and libel, intent is not the guiding principle; it appears to me that truth is the main guidepost, with others sometimes coming into play (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation).

I see censorship as a complex issue, and agree with you that the main question is one of scale. I think common responsibility asks us to create a reasonable level of legal censorship as a common denominator; personal responsibility demands that we censor material for our selves and our homes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Liz, the unfortunate trend I speak of is decreasing liberty. Over the past 100 years, we have seen a rise in compulsion and a retreat in freedom. I have no big complaints with current freedom of speech in general; I&#8217;m talking more about things like the rise of entitlement programs and increased taxation (the USA didn&#8217;t even have an income tax until 1913), the state of education, and commerce, to mention a few. </p>
<p>I agree there should be a common denominator of decency in censorship. What I disagreed with is using intent as the standard. I&#8217;m not a lawyer, but I think intent as you have discussed above is different from an author&#8217;s intent. In conspiring to commit a crime, aa person must actually do something (meet, discuss, plan the crime) before it is a crime. In defamation and libel, intent is not the guiding principle; it appears to me that truth is the main guidepost, with others sometimes coming into play (see <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation</a>).</p>
<p>I see censorship as a complex issue, and agree with you that the main question is one of scale. I think common responsibility asks us to create a reasonable level of legal censorship as a common denominator; personal responsibility demands that we censor material for our selves and our homes.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://www.topofthemountains.net/2006/05/04/the-kettle-black/#comment-706</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 May 2006 22:20:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.topofthemountains.net/2006/05/04/the-kettle-black/#comment-706</guid>
		<description>Bethany and Liz: Good point, and the idea of censoring those things which the vast majority of the population consider bad seems reasonable.  I think my reservations mainly had to do with small groups defining right and wrong for the citizenry as a whole; if it's the people themselves, then that's fine.  In fact, if I recall correctly that's the Book of Mormon attitude -- let the people's voice be heard (this was around the time of Amlici's failed attempt to become king, I think), and if they choose evil, then they're ripe for destruction.  You've made a good case for it and pretty much convinced me. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bethany and Liz: Good point, and the idea of censoring those things which the vast majority of the population consider bad seems reasonable.  I think my reservations mainly had to do with small groups defining right and wrong for the citizenry as a whole; if it&#8217;s the people themselves, then that&#8217;s fine.  In fact, if I recall correctly that&#8217;s the Book of Mormon attitude &#8212; let the people&#8217;s voice be heard (this was around the time of Amlici&#8217;s failed attempt to become king, I think), and if they choose evil, then they&#8217;re ripe for destruction.  You&#8217;ve made a good case for it and pretty much convinced me. :)</p>
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