Conversations about passion

From LifeHack.org, Conversations About Passion:

My number one trick for talking with people I don’t know is that I steer the conversation as fast as I can away from weather, sports, local TV news, and other topics. I ask people questions like, “So, when you’re not attending graduation ceremonies, what do you do that sparks your passion?”

Most people balk at the direct frontal assault of that question. For some reason, it’s just not done that way. People never think to ask someone straight out what really brings them joy in their lives. But you know what? When you take a risk on this early steering attempt and it pays off, the conversations are far richer.

Excellent point. People who are passionate about something — anything! — are far more interesting to talk to. It’s about living life to the fullest, about taking risks because something matters so much to you, about becoming something greater than yourself. A few months ago I was joking with one of my co-workers about being obsessive-compulsive. “No,” he replied, “you’re passionate.” That’s one of the best compliments I ever received. No matter how many times I fail, I want to be known for getting right back up again, for dreaming big, for putting my whole soul into what I do. Life is too short not to. And besides, it’s a better way to live.

I am so glad my post resonated with you. It’s exciting to find myself quoted in a Mormon blog.

And then I read the post about homosexuality. My thoughts here won’t hold much weight with you because I’m not an especially religious person. I am a fan of a few LDS folks, and prior to reading that article, I was a fan of Card’s fiction. NO, that’s not true. I still like Card’s fiction. I love Covey.

It just strikes me as a lot of energy expended towards pointing out someone else’s faults. I think this is one of those moments where it’s my lens versus your religion’s lens. Is there something in there that says, identify the sin and try to help the sinners? If so, I guess I can see what you and your readers are getting at.

But if it’s just a bunch of people taking swings at people who don’t see things the same way, isn’t that a lot of energy spent on things that aren’t useful to making the world better?

I remember watching LDS ads as a kid on TV, and it was always about someone being helpful. Don’t make me get out my fake-opera singing voice about the broken window commercial. I don’t remember any ads saying, “When you see gay people, make sure you tell them they’re wrong and family-wreckers, etc.”

I can see you do lots of good work with this blog, and that you seem to have a great readership of like-minded people. I would encourage them to contemplate what’s more holy: crapping on that which is different, or tending the garden of the Divine.

–Chris…

That’s an interesting, and perhaps too true an observation. I’ve heard comments like this sometimes before and I’ve tried to discover why members of the LDS faith might be prone to be harsh or fault finding. I am sure it is not in the doctrine. Rather, I think it is hard for people adhering to a religion that supposedly asks for one’s all, to not find it easier to simply compare with those around them and find that enough. We do it because it takes the focus off our own sins.

As far as favorite conversation starters, mine is usually to ask people how they would treat me differently if my name were Sarah (which it is not).

Chris, thanks for your comment. And I do understand your concern — tearing things down, criticizing, and attacking other people’s beliefs leaves as sour an aftertaste in my mouth as in yours. I can’t really speak for any of the readers on this blog, but as for myself, I hope it was clear that I’m against the sin and not at all against the sinners. Christ taught us to love one another and to strengthen each other, not to destroy others’ beliefs or worldviews. We’re here to bring more good to the world — that’s what our religion teaches us.

To understand why we feel so strongly about homosexuality, though, I think we need to talk about the family. We believe that families can be together forever — that even though death separates us, we can be reunited in the afterlife and live together in love and happiness for all eternity. And next to God and Jesus Christ alone, our families are the single most important thing in our lives. In families we learn the principles of humanity that help us function in society, like integrity, compassion, selflessness, hard work, and courage.

Not every family is perfect, of course, and we’re not under the delusion that they are. There are broken families, families with problems, and dysfunctional families which may even hurt more than help. But those are all cases where something goes wrong; when done right, families are the best thing since sliced bread. The family is the basic unit of society, and it’s the way things are meant to be. Bad things are more prone to arise from a broken family, because there’s not that strong support system.

So, we believe very, very strongly that families are extremely important. Homosexuality is a perversion of that wholesomeness. It’s not gay people themselves that we oppose — certainly not — but it’s the philosophy they espouse, the immorality they advocate, that we can’t accept. If you believe life is really important, then you’d probably be opposed to murder, right? If you believe that people have responsibilities to be good members of society, then drug abuse would be a bad thing because it creates crime and violence and other things that are bad for society. I’m not saying that homosexuality ought to be a crime at the same level of murder or drug abuse. People need to be free to live how they want, within the general guidelines of safety that the government sets up (if they want to murder people, that’s a lifestyle choice that probably ought not to be allowed).

But that doesn’t mean I have to accept the philosophy that homosexuality is good or even morally neutral. I don’t persecute gays and lesbians, nor will I ever do so. I’m sure many if not most of them are kind, goodhearted people who are trying to do what’s right. And my opinion is that they’re misguided and confused, but that doesn’t necessarily make them bad people. To me, there’s a clear separation between the abstract philosophy and the people who practice it. Homosexuality is bad, very bad. But homosexuals aren’t necessarily bad. (There are good homosexuals and bad homosexuals, just as there are good heterosexuals and bad heterosexuals. Blanket statements don’t work here.)

Dishonesty is bad. Injuring other people is bad. Theft is bad. Betraying one’s country is bad. Adultery is bad. Pornography is bad. Drugs are bad.

It’s okay to say that certain things are bad, because good and evil are not relative. Good is real, and bad is real, and if that idea becomes fuzzy to us, we’re going to be in trouble in a bad way before long.

Rachel: Good point. It is really easy to climb up on a soapbox and start decrying all our neighbor’s evils. And we’ve got to avoid that, because that’s certainly not at all what the Lord intends us to do.

Thanks for the thoughtful respose. I can agree with most of the points, and the ones where we differ, I have no intention of arguing about. I just agree to disagree on a few points.

That said, I try to live like Dr. Covey espoused in his affirming works, by working within my circle of influence. I work within my family, my organizations, my circles of friends, on being helpful, on being as good as I can with my time and my choices. I realize and acknowledge that I cannot change people’s will, and that instead, I try to model my best behavior. If others choose to learn from what I do (like writing at Lifehack.org or my own site, chrisbrogan.com), I am pleased enough.

When I spend time feeling negatively about any group, actively pursuing judgment and labeling and value decisions on their actions, it takes time and energy away from work that would matter to me. It would be like worrying about the lawn instead of building the house.

I find myself paused in this reply. I believe you consider homosexuality on par with something like pedophilia or gassing Jews on its level of things that shouldn’t be. I oppose both previously listed things, but do not oppose homosexuality. It’s a matter of perspectives. The homosexuals I know are all of the loving-and-not-especially-promiscuous kind, and so I have a harder time viewing their choices as inherently bad or evil.

Actually, there it is, again in Dr. Covey’s interpretation of Viktor Frankl’s words: Humankind’s greatest ability is the ability to choose.

From that, my personal belief (which I doubt maps to the LDS view) is that God (or *.deity as I’m fond of saying) is likely going to have His or her own method of sorting this all out at some final reconciliation (I was raised Catholic, so I’m sure this impacts my view of a final settling of business). I don’t feel I need to judge on God’s behalf (though being judgmental is certainly a sin I posess in spades).

That said, if ever I perceived an act I thought to be truly evil happening in my presence, I would feel compelled to act, especially if I felt I could somehow protect the victim(s).

If nothing else, your site has given my mind and soul plenty to mull over, and that must have some value.

Thanks again.

–Chris…

I like what you said about not changing people’s wills and instead trying to be an example. That’s almost always the best policy, especially since you really can’t force your own ideas on someone else.

Getting back to homosexuality, you’re of course free to believe whatever you choose to. And as Voltaire (or Rousseau, or somebody) said, while I may not agree with that belief, I’ll defend your right to believe it.

Our beliefs about the family and about the evil of homosexuality are not just a philosophy we’ve adopted because we like it. We believe that God speaks to prophets in our day, just like in days of old, and one of the things He has revealed is a proclamation to the world on the family. Two sentences stick out:

Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity.

And incidentally, with the vote on the Federal Marriage Amendment to the Constitution coming up in a week or two, the First Presidency (which is the living prophet, Gordon B. Hinckley, and his two counselors) issued a letter today urging members of the Church to support it. But that’s a topic for its own post… :)

Basically, God has commanded us to abstain from homosexuality (he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for it), and so to us it’s not just merely another lifestyle choice, but rather a grave violation of God’s laws. That’s why it’s evil. And it’s not us judging homosexuality to be evil — God has already made it very clear what His opinion is on the matter. So I don’t think we’re judging on God’s behalf. :)

As for worrying about the lawn instead of building the house, I think we’d consider it more a matter of worrying about a cracked foundation — if you don’t fix it, the house isn’t going to stand (at least not for long), so it is something that has to be dealt with.

Wow, I came to comment on conversations and “the weather” phenomenon and I find a full blown discussion on homosexuality. I think this is why some people stick with the weather. I wanted to mention that one can still glean something from a conversation on mundanities, like the weather. How much is the other person willing to have the conversation with me, for example. I really don’t like one-sided conversations and sometimes will default to things like that in an effort to get the other person to venture out somewhere on their own.

As for where the conversation actually went, I still believe that homosexuality is too complex to label. I shy away from calling others lost or confused on issues like this since my own religious founding often shudders under scrutiny. There simply is a lack of physical evidence that one would expect to find. I suspect this is so that we learn to develop faith and in general have little problem doing so.

The problem I have with the situation now is what the decision we make will lead to later on. Sticking an amendment in the Constitution regarding marriage concerns me that it will open the door to other such attempts at putting an amendment in that follows one belief or another. I also worry that banning homosexual marriage would lead to people justifying harassing them. Rather, it falls under a more general philosophy I have. Information is in such abundance, that it almost seems to be in excess. I don’t think there’s a person in this country that is not familiar with the idea that homosexuality is generally considered a sin in Christianity and other religions. We’re all aware of the assertions about it being the downfall of Sodom and Gomorrah (where do you think the term sodomize came from?) so at this point, why are we trying to legislate on it?

When an action of another person infringes on the ability of another person’s right to “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness”, then there needs to be a law protecting that. While I object to the practice, homosexuality is the choice of the person and I am confident they are aware of many of the arguments for and against their choice. I don’t see how one person choosing this lifestyle infringes on my ability to choose my lifestyle, so I don’t see how I can justly support an action that would legislate against it. Rather, I support strengthening the position of civil unions so that it gives mostly the same status as marriage under the law (in terms of tax breaks, spouse responsibility, and things of that nature). To me, something like that seems to be a fair compromise.

A quick thought: isn’t marriage more than just “one belief or another”? Marriage is at the core of every society on earth that’s been around for more than a few years, because it’s the only way that those societies can stick around. It’s fundamental. It’s different. It’s not just a belief, or a passing fad, or an odd custom espoused by a few. It’s part of being human.

To those who disagree, open your eyes! When marriage and families are broken, society crumbles. Not all at once, granted, but the effects are clear and damaging. Drug use skyrockets. Crime rates soar. The basis of society is torn. That’s not good. It’s not merely a religious belief — it’s at the core of who we are as a people. This transcends religion.

Not all cultures practice marriage in the terms we tend to see it. Typically it’s been a monogamous patriarchal society, with polygamy sometimes being acceptable, but there have been matriarchal societies where polyandry was practiced as well and even group marriage has been known to exist (some of this is detailed in Wikipedia).

Marriage has been used as much as a thing of convenience as it has been for a basis of society, the primary benefit being the production of children, known parent-hood, and consolidation of power. I agree it’s a part of who we are, and study and study shows that a family group influences a child’s upbringing much more than any other (i.e. school). But to bring those conclusions I think are a tad overzealous in their ties to marriage. These things have been problems since time began and are hardly a recent development with some of the degradation of the family that’s been especially prevalent in the past 50 years.

I don’t think anyone has ever claimed marriage as being “one belief or another” or as a passing fad. However, what marriage is defined as has changed throughout history, sometimes quite arbitrarily. Some groups see it as one thing while others see it as something completely different. That’s one of the core issues at the heart of the debate: whose view of marriage should we adopt and why?

Gay marriage won’t tear the family and society apart at the seams. We’re already doing that on our own. I think we’re focused on the wrong thing, the definition of marriage and not the quality of a family. There is no guarantee that a man and a woman married together will provide a good home for any children, or even themselves. There hasn’t even been any evidence to support that children growing up with homosexual guardians are any more likely to be homosexual themselves or exhibit any deviant behavior. Also, it isn’t homosexual couples or homosexuality that you find at the core of crime or drugs, that’s another dominantly heterosexual thing.

Societies that accepted homosexuality have been torn, but so have societies that haven’t accepted it. I think the core of societal downfall is a degradation of personal morals and responsibility. I’m talking about lying, cheating, stealing, and doing at the expense of your neighbor for profit to yourself. Exorbitant spending for the wealthy at the expense of the poor. The destruction of the family in the sense of accepting no responsibility to raise children to work together in an honest fashion or to give back rather than just take. These are the things that tear a society apart.