Lip-locked lust

I’ve never kissed a girl. (In Utah parlance, that means I’m “VL” — virgin lips.) Until last night, I expected that when I do find the girl of my dreams, we’d go on a few dates and then we’d hold hands and then, after five or six or seven dates, we’d kiss. That would be the sign that we were “together,” that we were boyfriend and girlfriend. After all, that’s how everyone else does it.

But as I was reading I Kissed Dating Goodbye last night, I came to the quiet realization that I want my first kiss with the girl I marry to be at the altar, not before.

Quaint and old-fashioned? Perhaps. (You do have to remember that for me, “old-fashioned” is a very good thing.)

And now you turn to me with a concerned look and ask, “But why, Ben, why?”

Because it feels right.

I’m not saying kissing is a sin. But for me, I’ve decided that it’s something so special that I want to save it for my wedding day. I’m not in any hurry to get into a physical relationship with a girl. After all, I’ll have all eternity for that. I’d rather avoid temptation entirely, showing my affection in other ways (and there are many of them). And when that day does come, it’ll mean so much more, to both of us. Besides, if the relationship doesn’t work out, do I really want to have gotten intimate to any degree?

I’m noticing that relationships are often defined by physical mile markers. Hand-holding comes first, and the first kiss means ice cream for the roommates. (I suspect this may be a guy thing. :)) But do I want my relationship to be measured by how physically intimate we are? No. What matters far more to me — so much so that I’m willing to give up the physical until I’m married — is the relationship of the soul, of the mind and spirit.

Pretend, for example, that your boyfriend/girlfriend was horribly burned in a house fire, losing all their hair and much of their face. Would you still love them? What is it that you love — is it their body or is it their soul?

So, to stay pure for my future wife, I’m going to kiss kissing goodbye.

Update: I changed my mind in October 2007. :)

Bravo!

I say good on ya! Stick to your guns on this one. You wont regret it! And you’ll marry your sweetheart for all the right reasons.

I really liked the way you think about love!!! You’re such a great boy, Congratulations. :)

Thanks, both of you, for your support. :) Interestingly enough, the few people that I’ve told this to in “real life” have all exclaimed, “Ben! What are you thinking?!? What if…what if you’re not compatible?” I originally thought that when that happened I’d launch into an enumeration of the reasons, but I’ve found that the better, less-contentious way is to merely say, “I feel it’s right for me.” And that usually does it. You know, I find myself gravitating toward higher and higher standards, almost like a moth attracted to the light on the back porch. :)

Well, I’m not so sure how old-fashioned the concept is. To be honest, I’m not aware that there was a time when the first kiss had to be over the altar. I’m sure in more puritan times, it wasn’t a thing one would see often, but I think seriously dating (or courting) couples would kiss, but dating back in those days was slightly different as well. It’s difficult to compare the two.

I’m in the same “club” as you are, with regard to kissing. In fact, there hasn’t been a girl I’ve seriously dated yet, beyond a first or second date, and I’ve only really held hands once. I can see where you’re coming from with the intimacy thing, I’m less than impressed when I walk around campus with some of the displays of affection I see. I’d like to think it’s not bitterness on my part for being single, but more because such displays seem to me to be compensating for something, like a deeper underlying relationship between the people.

I think kissing is largely what you make of it, just as hand-holding, hugging, cuddling, etc. will be. It’s easy to see that many are out for the thrill that come from the emotions aroused by such actions, but that’s not all it has to be about either. I’m not sure how kissing would show if two people are compatible or not, so I think you’re just fine in skipping over it whenever someone makes that comment. It seems akin to the modern trend of couples living and ’sleeping’ together first to see if they’re compatible. Undoubtedly something can be learned from such, but I think there are other “better” ways of finding out if you’re compatible.

So as far as kissing goes, I think it largely depends on what your motivation is. If it’s for the bio-emotional thrill it elicits or, even more despicably, because there are others present or potential “competition”, then that’s time to stop and re-evaluate just what you feel for the other person (odds are it isn’t love). But it can also be a pure expression of affection, trust, and commitment; a way of showing the other person that yes, you really do mean that much to me.

Moderation seems to be the key. Going to excesses in physical displays of emotion is likely to be nothing more than lust at worst, and at best stifles the growth of the relationship towards something deeper. You might want to be careful about signing yourself up for that commitment, the girl you would want to marry (with or without it) might not go for that sort of thing (ho ho). Just because you have something that you can sacrifice for later, doesn’t mean that doing so will make it worth that much more. If there comes a time when a kiss feels like the right thing to do, something you’re at peace with and feel is right, then go for it, there’s never a more appropriate time. Of course, if there’s any doubt, either for your motivation for said kiss or even just an inexplicable hanging doubt, then it’s probably best to hold off and analyze that further.

A first, even semi-awkward kiss that is the start of a serious relationship can be just as meaningful as a final parting kiss at the end of your lives, it’s all in what you’re making of it.

I don’t think anyone ever regretted waiting.

I have hestitated to comment on this one, mostly because I am also VL, and so I don’t know how much of this opinion is valid. But to me, it seems that resolving not to kiss is a backwards way to avoid lust. Perhaps this could backfire: not having any physical action could result in over-anticipation, and consequently more lust, not less. Really, like Shaun says, kissing is not the cause of lust, but a symptom. Your resolution should be to avoid lust in your relationship, which is admittedly a harder goal to judge.

Then again, I also have to acknowledge that the romanticness of the idea appeals to me. And if it feels right with the spirit, then who am I to go against it?

Then again, what would happen if you met the perfect girl, except she didn’t feel the same way about kissing? Or she has already kissed someone else?

There are a lot of factors here. Still not sure what I think.

Shaun: Yes, the motivation does matter a great deal. I don’t really think that kissing (with the proper motivation, and at an appropriately small level of passion) is a sin, nor that it always seeps out of lust. I am a hopeless romantic, after all. And I’m sure there will someday come a “perfect moment” while dating my wife-to-be where the stars are aligned and there’s a crab in a nearby pond singing “Kiss the Girl.” ;) But I’ve made my decision. There will be other perfect moments — an eternity of them, in fact. Kissing is something I feel I can give up (until marriage) without offending the Spirit (and that goes both ways — if I were to read my scriptures all day to the exclusion of taking care of my family or other duties, for example, that would probably offend the Spirit).

Let me put it this way: I cherish my future wife (whoe’er she may be) to such a degree that I’m willing to take a small precaution to ensure that I never tarnish her. Sure, I have control over my hormones, but why place myself in situations which threaten to seize that from me? I’d rather play it safe. And I don’t think it’s cheating the girl of anything (other than premature intimacy, and the value of that is debatable). There are many, many, many other ways to express romance and love and affection.

And yes, PDA (public displays of affection) can indeed be somewhat awkward for innocent bystanders. Sometimes even really awkward. ~sigh~

Liz: True, it could backfire, and lust is certainly an obstacle. But it seems to me that kissing excites feelings inside men (and perhaps women — correct me if I’m wrong) that easily lead to fierce passions. And those passions, when stirred up, are a dragon which fights for its survival like a firestorm. Just look at all the children born out of wedlock. It can happen to anyone. And of course abstinence from kissing is no excuse to indulge in lustful thoughts or anything remotely related. The goal of my goal is to preserve purity. :)

If the perfect girl has already kissed someone else, I’m certainly not going to hold it against her. And if she doesn’t feel the same way about kissing, well, we’ll talk about it. For her to be the perfect girl for me, she’ll respect my decision even if she doesn’t agree. I don’t mean that I want my wife to mold her thoughts and opinions to match mine. No! I want a feisty woman with a mind of her own. But she absolutely has to be willing to support me in my decisions to strive for righteousness. No exceptions.

Kissing is such an interesting subject. I’ll disclose upfront that I, too, am “VL.” Please note, this is not because I’ve never had a chance, so while my opinion may be biased, it isn’t sour grapes.

I’ve given some thought to physical contact in general. Any physical contact (hugging, holding hands, kissing, etc.) should be an expression of pure love and affection. Obviously, a kiss means more than holding hands or a quick hug, but even something as small as puting your arm around someone can be an act of lust if your doing it for the wrong reasons. I have held hands and enjoyed it. But I’ve also been in situations where I’ve known that my reason for holding hands would be that I like holding hands with guys, rather than a specific affection for the person I could be holding hands with, so I haven’t done it.

I’ve let one guy put his arm around me, but felt unfomfortable in another dating situation when a guy tried to put his arm around me. I realized that it was because my feelings hadn’t been the same. In one case, I’d simply been interested in friendship, so any physical contact that expressed more than friendship was too much.

I think, especially among young people, it can be difficult to differentiate between your attraction to a person and your attraction to a relationship. It’s nice to have someone to do things with, who loves your company, thinks you’re beautiful and makes you laugh. The first time it happens, it’s easy to think that all the feelings you have are specific to one person, but they probably aren’t. Part of it is just the fact that you like having *someone* to hold hands with. I’ve seen couples get close quickly and start kissing and then after three months they break up because they’re both 17 and there’s nowhere else for the relationship to go.

I don’t have a specific committment as far as kissing, but I imagine my first kiss being when I get engaged. When I find the right person, I won’t want a lot of romantic memories with other men.

Here’s a good quote on kissing from President Kimball:

“Kissing has been prostituted and has degenerated to develop and express lust instead of affection, honor, and admiration. To kiss in casual dating is asking for trouble. What do kisses mean when given out like pretzels and robbed of sacredness? What is miscalled the “soul kiss” is an abomination and stirs passions to the eventual loss of virtue. Even if timely courtship justifies the kiss it should be a clean, decent, sexless one like the kiss between mother and son, or father and daughter.

“If the “soul kiss” with its passion were eliminated from dating there would be an immediate upswing in chastity and honor, with fewer illegitimate babies, fewer unwed mothers, fewer forced marriages, fewer unhappy people.” (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.281)

Thanks for the quote from President Kimball — I’d read it before and it was there in the back of my mind as I wrote the original post, and I certainly agree with him. “Even if timely courtship justifies the kiss” sounds almost like it’s rare for such a justification to exist. And while I don’t have any personal experience here, it seems like the physical thrill of a kiss would make it very hard to keep it “clean, decent, [and] sexless,” especially the longer the relationship has been going on. (Not impossible, of course, just difficult.) It’s almost like there are magnets pulling you together, inexorably, irresistibly. If you get to close, snap! And it’s almost uncontrollable at that point. Better to keep the magnets far enough apart until the time when they can snap together.

The question of kissing and physicality in general is an interesting one for a variety of reasons, obviously. When I was in high school, I made a similar decision, which I told my mother my freshman year of college, confident that she would praise me for my utter devotion to chastity. To my surprise, she told me that my idea was absurd, referencing another statement of President Kimball’s given during a BYU fireside, during which he said that one of the main causes of divorce for LDS couples was that they depended too much upon the spiritual side of the relationship, all but eliminating the still vitally important physical aspect.
It is perhaps at this point (I should probably have said this earlier) that I should quite explicitly state that I am in no wise attacking your decision, or even attempting to portray my own decisions and thoughts upon the subject in any way as superior; they are merely different. Physicality, from hand holding to a simple hand on the knee to kissing, serves a variety of functions in a relationship, funcitons which can quite easily be abused not only in the obvious way–fornication, etc.–but also for sheer selfish personal fulfillment, a way of exercising power of another person, an avenue for avoiding actual emotional commitment to a relationship, etc. However, at the same time, holding someone’s hand or kissing someone as an expression of your devotion to them can bring two people closer emotionally and even spiritually than conversation. It’s simply another arena where two people can become even closer to each other; I think that it becomes up to the couple to determine when that area of the relationship should be explored and brought into the equation. While too much physicality can drive people violently apart due to guilt and abuse, when it holds its proper place in a relationship–based on the kinds of approaches Shaun discussed–it can make the entire experience deeper and more fulfilling, whenever that first kiss happens.

Wow. There sure are a lot of VLs reading your blog, Ben.
I think I (incidentally, also VL by choice) am going to have to respectfully disagree. I think I’ll kiss a guy when I’m _courting_ him, just as President Kimball counseled–when timely courtship justifies a kiss. But that kiss will be, also as he counseled, clean, decent, and sexless. I’ve come to understand these past few years the incredible difference between the male and female sexual response–and I wouldn’t want to be responsible for getting a guy going if I can help it.
As far as “tainting” your future wife, eh, I’m not so sure I agree. I understand the desire to not let lust in, but you shouldn’t forget that physical attraction is pretty important in marriage. The Lord made us attractive to one another for a very good reason, and ignoring that attraction is just as unhealthy as being overcome by it. After all, you can’t wake up next to your wife and say, “honey, bear your testimony for me.” You have to think she’s beautiful and wonderful and yes, physically attractive.
That said, I admire your decision and your refusal to be swayed. Just bear in mind that your decision is a personal one, and what is right in your relationships is not the only way to go, nor is it the only course pleasing to God.

Anna: When I told my mother, she echoed similar sentiments. I’m sensing a theme here. :) And I do agree: physicality can be a great way to express devotion. I’m not at all saying that we ought to get rid of all physical aspects of pre-marital relationships. (I should have made that more clear. :)) Touch is important and even essential to human development. I just think that kissing can be too close to the edge sometimes; holding hands, on the other hand, is fine by me.

Amy: Interesting, I hadn’t really noticed that. :) And yes, I make no claim that waiting until the altar for the first kiss is the One Right Way or that God frowns on any and all who kiss before then. Of course not. I even acknowledge that my decision is a bit on the extreme side. :) But it’s a personal decision, and that’s all it is. This isn’t one of those things where I think everyone else is wrong. (For that, we’d have to turn the discussion to the movies people watch nowadays. ;))

Again, I’m all for physical attraction. I fully expect to be attracted to my wife. Not only does the maleness in me demand it, but as an artist I have to find my wife aesthetically pleasing. That’s just how it is. (Granted, personality can overcome a lot, as with Jane Eyre and Mr. Rochester, but I’m not going to worry about that at the moment.) I love the beauty of women. It’s the pinnacle of God’s creation, in my estimation.

This osculatory abstinence :) is purely a cautionary measure to keep from straying on forbidden paths, not a wholesale boycott of physicality in toto. Yes, I will hold hands. Yes, I will hug. Yes, I will put my arm around my girl, whenever I find her. I’m not a monk. :) (In Thailand the monks can’t touch women.) And yes, I’d better find my wife attractive when I wake up each morning, because she can work on her testimony, but she can’t do a whole lot to change her looks. Did I just say that? :)

Funny, though. A woman *can* do an awful lot to change her looks. It’s said that there are no ugly women, just lazy ones. So true.
Conversely, her testimony is something you’re going to want to check on before you marry her. It’s not too bright to figure that you can teach her once you’re married, and she’ll suddenly have faith. On a related note, women tend to get more beautiful for the person they love.
I have a question for you, Ben. Not being male, I’m kind of lost as to how kissing would put you over the edge. I’m not sure if there’s an easy way to explain that in words, but if you could help me understand what it is that makes you so worried, I’d appreciate it.

Don’t worry, I was completely kidding. :) (Though admittedly it was dangerous territory on which to tread.) And I find that when I get to know most girls, even though I may not have found them necessarily attractive at first, before long I see beauty in them. It’s happened with the girls I work with, the girls in my ward, and many of my female friends. And it’s a wonderful thing.

I’m not really so shallow that I expect a supermodel wife. No, the kind of beauty I’m looking for comes more from within. It’s a wholesome beauty, one that blossoms out of righteous living. Also, a girl’s testimony and standards are the most important criteria to me personally. Not that she has to be perfect, but she does have to love the Lord far more than anything else on earth, including me. And she has to be willing to give up anything and everything to follow Him. Everything else is just details — some more important than others, but none as important as devotion to the Lord.

And now for the kissing question. I’m not losing any sleep over this, mind you, but I’ve noticed in observing other couples that premature physical intimacy can often lead to unwanted situations. I don’t think that it always does, and with most of the people I know, I’m almost certain they’ve never gone past the line. But it just seems like their kisses usually aren’t “clean, decent, and sexless” — nothing too bad, but still more passionate than you’d expect between a mother and son or a father and daughter, as President Kimball said. Kissing stirs up passions which can only be rightfully satisfied in marriage. We don’t have to act on them, and in fact we mustn’t, but the fact remains that they’re there. (Maybe this is just a guy thing, though.) It’s a natural instinct for the promulgation of the human race. And the media encourages this — most on-screen kisses are quite passionate, thus persuading us (whether consciously or not) that passionate kissing is okay and normal. Everyone’s doing it, so it must be right, or so it seems.

The other slippery landslide is that it’s easy for the relationship to become more weighted on the physical side. It doesn’t always happen that way, but I’ve seen plenty of couples where the only reason they’re still together is because they need someone to cuddle with. It is a valid need, sure, but I just don’t see good coming out of such a shaky foundation, unless the relationship becomes based on something more substantial.

Having said that, I have no doubt that were I to kiss a girl at the appropriate time, I’d be able to reign in my passion. By avoiding situations that could be regrettable (being up past curfew alone with a girl, being alone in a house with a girl, etc.), the possibility of bad things happening can be almost completely removed. I’m not afraid of losing control. But why even get close? It’s not something so necessary to a relationship that it would be impossible to get married without it. My aunt’s first kiss was at the altar, and they have a great relationship and an amazing family. Didn’t hurt them at all.

Let’s see if I can summarize my thoughts in a sentence or two. Clean, decent, sexless kisses at the right time are not wrong. For me, I’ve decided that I want that time to be at the altar, because I’m a hopeless romantic and because it makes for a great story and because most everyone else thinks I’m crazy to do it. :)

You’re a hoot, Ben. Admit it: You’re just doing this because everyone else says you can’t, and for once you want to stick your thumb in everyone else’s eye. :)

Rats, I’ve been found out! You forgot to mention that I can get away with it, too. ;)

I’d say to stop overanalyzing and just kiss her when the time comes. :)

Although when to kiss/not kiss is an extremely personal decision, I’d have to agree that it’s not absolutely necessary to courtship. After reading this post, I asked my mom what she thought about the whole topic. She told me frankly that, although my dad didn’t kiss her until they were engaged, they kissed TOO much during their engagement. Looking back, she said that she wishes they hadn’t kissed nearly as much.

I think a lot of LDS couples tend to forget the eternal perspective. They’ve got all of eternity to kiss…what’s the hurry? :0)

‘Tis true, ’tis true. Scarcity raises value. (Or at least that’s my admittedly flawed understanding of economics.) I want my kisses to be worth millions, so I choose to hold on to them until the right time. If you sell prematurely, when the price is low, you lose. :P

Um, this is why I rarely write about business and finances. :)

Wait, then doesn’t that make you the osculatory equivalent of a hoarder, artificially driving up the value of your kisses by withholding them? Or maybe that comparison doesn’t work because the world at large doesn’t regard kisses as valuable. :P

Hey Ben–I have been where you are, felt like you did, almost did what you plan and can just say: learn to follow the Spirit and your heart in these things.

Sixline-meet someone who regrets not kissing earlier. If you have deep feelings for someone and want to express them, there is sometimes simply no better way to do so. . . and it can be a strengthening, blessing experience for both.

Rikker: Um, well, yes, I’m a hoarder. And if the value goes up, who cares if the means is artificial? :P

Ryan: Certainly. This is all theory, considering that I don’t have a girlfriend, and when it comes into practice I’m sure there will be some slight modifications. But I’d rather have a too-high standard going in than one not high enough to keep me safe. :)

Wow. I’ve never seen so many VLs congregated in one area before… yet another sign of the times? :)

I’ve kissed 11 girls. Some were back in my early BYU days when NCMO was big on campus (those of you around back then will remember the hooplah in the Daily Universe where university officials got up in arms over the ncmo.org website that allowed NCMO-would-bes to hook up). Some were with girls I was in a serious relationship with.

My first kiss after the mission was NCMO, and it was retarded. I remember thinking, while kissing the girl, that it was no fun. There was no emotion, no bond, no connection. It was just, as you say, lust.

But then there have been the times where it’s been with somebody for whom I had feelings, and the kiss was meaningful. Yes, I think that you can cheapen the act of kissing by turning it into a lust-filled activity, but you can also control your passions, refrain from analyzing everything, and enjoy it.

I do not feel that the law of chastity includes kissing. I believe that sexual relations must wait for marriage, but kissing does not need to. “Saving yourself” for your spouse does not include kissing (in my opinion). I won’t feel bad knowing my wife has kissed other guys. It’s a part of dating and previous relationships.

I do think it is a bit prudish to take the stance you have chosen. Like some sister missionaries who serve simply because there aren’t any marriage prospects on the horizon, I feel that some who have decided not to kiss until at the altar only do so because they really haven’t had any opportunties previously, and so they figure that they might as well hold out to make a statement. I’m sure this is not accurate in all circumstances, but from a few alter-waiters I’ve known, it seems to be the case.

If it feels right to you, then more power to ya.

Connor: I too believe that the law of chastity doesn’t extend to kissing, nor do I think that kissing is a sin. (I do think that making out is lustful and inappropriate till marriage, though. See President Kimball’s quote above. :))

As for whether I’ve chosen this stance purely because I’ve never had the chance to kiss a girl, I beg to differ. :) That may be the case for a small number of people, I suppose, but for me it was a proactive, clear decision based on what felt right, pure, and holy for me. It’s not a last resort, a desperate attempt to get attention because I clearly can’t get it otherwise. :P No, even if I had a steady girlfriend right now, my choice would remain the same.

If you’re not going to kiss until you get married, than you probably ought to wait a week or two to have sex. It’s tough (and weird and unnatural) to do it all at once. But then, you’ll figure that out if/when you get there.

Coming from a married Mormon woman, I heartily agree with JB on his comment. Yes everyone is different, and maybe you can jump right in, but don’t be surprised if some things are incredibly uncomfortable and awkward for both of you for awhile. Most people don’t have a light switch to physical intimacy that you can suddenly flip on once now that you’re married.

As for your perfect girl, yes she should support you in your desire for righteousness, but as you have said, kissing does not constitute sinning or unrighteousness; so if she feels strongly that she should kiss you before you’re married and not in front of 40 people for your first time, take it to the Lord then and see how you feel. Don’t just write her feelings off because you wrote off kissing, think it would be a good story, and/or are a hopeless romantic with ideas of how things should be. Things rarely turn out how you think they should.

First off, Melyngoch wrote a response, take me to your secular world, but for some reason it didn’t register a trackback. So consider this the trackback. :) You can read my reply in the comments on her post.

JB and CMB: I’m quite content with waiting to have sex until my wife feels ready, however long that takes. And I really do mean that. Like I said in my comment on Melyngoch’s post, my life is not driven by sex, nor am I getting married solely so I can legitimately have sex. There’s so much more to life (and marriage!) than that. Nor do I mean to discount the importance of sex, since of course it’s a natural part of God’s plan for us, and it’s vital to a healthy relationship between man and wife. I trust that it will all work out in the appropriate time, as long as I follow the promptings of the Spirit. If I’m earnestly seeking guidance from the Lord, I don’t think He’s going to let me botch my marriage from the get-go. It’ll be fine. Believe me.

I want my bride to be happy, to feel comfortable and safe and all of that. And I will do everything I can to make sure I don’t ruin that, which means quelling whatever passions may arise if they would make her feel uncomfortable in any way.

I have no intention of being a dictator. I want my wife to have her own opinions, a strong and vibrant mind on her own. I don’t want someone who just says yes to everything I say. No, I want/need someone with spunk, with attitude. (But in the right way; some have so much attitude that they steer off the path of the Lord.)

To that end, if she feels strongly that we ought to kiss before getting married, whether to avoid the awkwardness of a public first kiss or what have you, then I’m willing to rethink my decision. In all honesty, the reason I’m doing this isn’t because I think premarital osculation is a sin; it’s because I want to avoid the prevalent making out (carnal, lusty kissing) that I see all around me, which is a hotbed of temptation. Having a high ideal makes it easier to stay out of trouble, that’s all.

I have appreciated following this conversation; the comments have been very thoughtful, undeluted, and straightforward.
Ben: I admire your adhearance to a moral spine in a culture where wilting is often praised. What a wonderful time to round up our shoulders and bear up Zion!

I think that we all agree that physical affection is appropriate at the correct time in a relationship. We probably also agree that there are various degrees of physical intimacy just as there are various degrees of closeness in a relationship. As Ben said initially, it can seem a shallow thing to mark a relationship by steps in physical affection (actually TALKING to a girl, asking her out, holding her hand, taking her arm, kissing, etc.). The ultimate direction of these actions is closenes…approaching complete unity in soul and body. There is a natural draw for closeness, and it is not always lust.

Through and through, we are hard-wired for goodness. I know that many are thinking of the “natural man is an enemy to God” idea of existence, but I would advise you to consider an even greater, more fundamental principle: “Man is the image of God”…in every respect. We are not programmed to sin, but to recognize the good from the evil and choose the good. Yes, we are fallen, bbut we are built to be noble, to obey God’s commands and love him and our fellow man.

I would submit that the feelings that draw us closer to someone we love…even physical, sexual feelings, are good and gloryfying. Thankfully, the Lord has set the bounds in order to give us the greatest joy. As we progress in a dating relationship we should be encouraged that we are sexually atracted to a partner…it means that we were put together right. Should these promptings be acted on? Yes…at the correct time. If done so, it will further bind love, and remove doubts and complete our weaknesses. Love is a strange volnurability that requires giving and accepting all. THAT can be a large clump to swallow in one try; thus love is progressive. It is constructed of exchanges of many kinds on many levels.

Having dated several wonderful LDS girls–strong girls of great moral character–I have enjoyed the progressive intimacy that has enriched each relationship…it was necessary and helped us not only express affection, but to receive it. And in so doing, we grew closer and more clearly saw obsticals in our paths.

I am disturbed by groups that flock to the VL banner, almost as much as those who march to the NCMO beat. Proper affection, at the appropraite times is good, and aids in progression in relationships and individually. It takes faith to move forward…conversly, it takes pride (both the looking up and looking down kinds) to remain stagnant.

In reply to President Kimball’s statement, several things should be clarified: 1) Context: He was referring to “deep kissing”..or, as we more commonly know it, “passionate, prolonged, French-kissing”; 2) Audience and time: The book was written as a statement to a world where morals were sliding faster than ever before in the history of mankind. The year was 1969, and this book (”Miracle of Forgiveness”) was truly the first bold declaration about the moral and societal dangers of sexual promiscuity so prevelant during that era. I think that we can all agree that it was a very necessary voice. 3) Doctrine: While I have enjoyed the insights this book has lent me over the years, it is trumped without argument by further light and knowledge published by the Church (For the Strength of Youth, Proclamation to the World, etc.)…There are many good things (and entertaining stories (i.e. Sasquatch (p. 127), women should not wear shorts in public (p. 226))), that make it a good book by a good man.

Ben, my advice. Move forward with steps of faith. At the appropriate time, when you love a girl–and I mean truly love her–you’ll want her to know it. At that time you’ll understand why even God’s words alone couldn’t create the earth…it took action with a pure purpose.

dude,
i’m all for not kissing every person you meet, i waited until i was 20 before my first kiss. the wait was a very good idea… so was the kiss. while i disagree with you, you’re free to have your own opinion. there is one thing i would like to clarify for you. women have sex drives too. physical pleasure is not just a male thing.

I was being sincere with my comment. The if/when was only a tiny bit that I think your standards are too strict. Mostly it’s that I know a lot of Mormons who have a hard time finding people to marry at all. That’s an issue I won’t go into here, though.

I don’t think making out (and not all Mormons are pro-making out) gets you prepared to have sex, either. Basically, I think it’s a good idea to realize that there’s no reason to be pressured into having sex right away. It’s unrealistic to think you can/will. If you won’t even kiss, then it’ll just take longer. If you can find someone who is able and willing to respect your decision, awesome. If not, it sounds like you’re willing to compromise and that’ll take you pretty far.

I came to your blog through a string of other websites and, well, anyway…

In other news, my uncle apparently had the same idea, but in the end decided that it would be better to kiss my aunt before they got to the alter (but after they were engaged) just to make sure it would work. Because, if you’re not into kissing your spouse, you’re in trouble.

On a more personal matter, I can see where you are coming from, but you might want to reconsider just a tad and think about kissing your future fiance.

Grandy: I generally agree. As far as President Kimball’s statement goes, he did say in the middle of the quote that “even if timely courtship justifies the kiss it should be a clean, decent, sexless one like the kiss between mother and son, or father and daughter.” He pinpointed French kissing as something utterly inappropriate for premarital relations, but this sentence makes it clear what his position was on other kissing. Passionate kissing can easily lead to other passions which are harder to quell. Keep it “clean, decent, and sexless,” I say.

JB: I doubt I’ll marry someone who can’t respect my decision. :) Now let me explain what I mean by that: I don’t mean that I expect my wife to bend to my will, yadda yadda yadda, since that’s not what I want at all. But if she can’t respect my desire to live a righteous life and the choices I make to further that end, we won’t be equally yoked and I can’t see either of us being happy. My wife won’t agree with everything I say, to be sure, but she will respect my righteous desires (not any unrighteous ones, of course), just as I’ll respect her righteous desires even when I disagree.

Rachel: Well, if you know you have the Lord’s approval on a marriage, and you’re attracted to each other, then does it matter whether you’re “into kissing your spouse” or not? If everything else is right but you find out that you don’t like their kiss, are you going to kill the relationship? It seems like nitpicking to me. I don’t mean to undermine the value of kissing at all, but there are more important things to a relationship. And if I know that the Lord okays my choice of a bride, the rest doesn’t matter. I trust Him.

Warning: Mission stories ahead…

Ben: Allow me to refer to a zone conference lesson from President Slater. In one of my first couple zone conferences (I don’t think you were there yet, but maybe you were) he compared life and decision-making to climbing a mountain.

Now, a mountain may have many paths. God, of course, knows all those paths.

One path might be really easy–straight up the slope, gentle incline, lovely flowers along the way. And most importantly, it gets to the top.

Another path also gets to the top, but is full of switchbacks, and is poorly maintained in places, so you climb with difficulty.

Then there’s another path that leads to a dangerous cliff that you would surely fall from were you to take it.

President Slater then told a personal story to further illustrate this comparison. He told of when he was faced with an important decision: whether to move and accept work in a new city, or to stay put in his then-job. He and his wife prayed and prayer over it, agonizing over the decision, and then got the confirmation that they should move.

So they prepared to leave, and then one day were called into an interview with a General Authority. As I recall, it was an apostle, but don’t quote me on that. He spoke to Sister Slater first. The interviewer explained that they wanted to call her husband to be the new Stake President. She explained, no, you don’t understand, see, they wouldn’t be in the stake anymore. The interviewer chuckled, and explained again that they’d like her husband to be the new Stake President. She figured he must not have understood her, so she re-explained that they would be moving away in a matter of months and couldn’t possibly accept the calling. It took a third explanation from the interviewer before she got it. :)

So what did they do? They didn’t move. He served as Stake President for a good number of years, and then was called to be a Mission President.

In decision making, inspiration is important, but we don’t just say, “Okay, God, tell me what to do…” and wait for a lucid plan to enter our minds. (I know you know this, I’m just trying to connect the dots.) Very often we must ponder the issue, think it through, make what we think is the best decision, and then we make a prayer requesting confirmation of that choice. Of course, we don’t know if the path we’re about to take is the easy one, the rocky one with all the switchbacks, or easy for a while and then rocky, or even the dead-end cliff.

God doesn’t pre-plan your life out for you. But if you pray to him sincerely, he will probably tell you a clear “no” if you have chosen the certain-death path.

But say you’ve chosen the more difficult of the possible paths, though it is not deadly. If you pray to ask God about that path, President Slater suggested that sometimes God says “yes” to these paths, in a “sure, go ahead, it’ll do you good” way.

Now, I relate this story because Spencer W. Kimball also taught that there is no “soulmate” waiting for you. I believe that in the absence of selfishness, virtually any two people with a common goal of exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom, and dedication to making a marriage work can in fact make it work. Take away any of those factors and it probably won’t.

This is all a roundabout way of saying that God can and likely does give confirmations on marriages that will later end in divorce. Or, that will be ridden with difficulty. Say, a marriage where the couple gets in a wreck on the way home from the wedding, and one of them dies. Or, as with a couple I know, the husband breaks his neck and is paralyzed in an accident on their honeymoon, undergoes dozens of surgeries, and is unable to work for many years?

God doesn’t always say “no” just because the path is difficult, and he doesn’t always say “yes” because it’s the only possible, or the only right path.

So don’t ask unless you’re ready for the answer to be yes… :)

Wow!!! I think I have been reading this post and the trackbacks for over an hour now. (phew!) I had many a LOL and a few moments of awkwardness;)

BEN: I think it is very admirable that you are willing to give up kissing in order to stay far away from the “cliff”. We need more people who are willing to stand up for morality because the underlying issue you are standing up for is morality! (there are too many promoting immorality in our world today)

ALL: No, I’m not saying kissing before marriage is wrong (if someone else brings that “rebut” again I may scream ;) and I realise all the issues/consequences that people have talked about in waiting till the altar, but knowing Ben, his intentions are pure and I think that once he knows who his wife-to-be is, they will figure out what is best for them TOGETHER (for that is the purpose) and it won’t be a WORLDY descision.

BRAVO! (I’m tempted to say more, but I think I will restrain myself;) I have been on here WAY too long ;)

Rikker: That’s a very good point. And I still hold by my statement that if God okays my choice of a bride, I’m fine with that — even if it’s the switchbacked path laden with difficulties. As long as it’s not the “certain death” path, I’ll go through whatever challenges life throws my way provided that I know the Lord is content with my choices. So let’s pretend I choose a wife and God okays it, knowing it’s going to be a “sure, go ahead, it’ll do you good” experience. If He thinks it’ll do me good, and if that was my choice based on all the various inputs I had, then that’s fine by me.

Having said that, of course, I don’t want a divorce or to become paraplegic or watch my wife die the day after the wedding. Only a madman would. But if I’m living in line with God’s commandments and those things do happen, at least I’ll have the reassurance that somehow He’ll make things turn out okay in the end — He is the master healer, after all.

Does that make sense? I don’t mean that whatever happens is God’s will. Far from it. All I mean is that if I know God is pleased with me, then He’ll help me get through whatever trials and obstacles come my way, whether or not He created them. And that’s good enough for me. I don’t expect a trial-free life.

Jacqueline: This page’s length has grown far longer than I ever expected. And here I am adding to it. ~sigh~ :) Thanks for your support.

Very proud of you for sying what so many of us were thinking!. I too agree that kissing is a sin. Anything sexual is totaly a sin…

In fact, I just wanted to reply and let you know how moved by your statements I was, and that I’ve vowed from this point forward that my relationship with my wife will be purely 100% non-physical. That way we’ll be able to grow that much closer to each other’s soul and spirit. I don’t want to become too dependant on any physical attraction or lust, so we’ve both agreed that we’re never going to have sexual relations again. Actually, to prevent that, we’re never going to kiss again, either. I think we’ll still be able to sleep in the same bed, but we’ll have to have our expectant child sleep in-between us from now on.

I am totally in agreeance with you that dating and marriage has SO much more to it than actually being attracted to the person you’re spending eternity with…

That being said, I’m gonna go home and sleep with my wife…

wb

Just wanted to say that I agree with you. I’m one of the many VL people here…and it’s for a couple of reasons. Partly because I don’t really date much, and partly because it takes me a while to be comfortable with someone physically. I’ve held hands with guys…twice? Something like that. And that was mostly his doing on both accounts. That being said, it didn’t really mean much either time. I mean, honestly-shouldn’t a relationship be more than ‘lets go watch a movie and hold hands’? I’ve yet to find someone that I can be intellectually stimulated by. I want someone I can have conversations with. So yeah…kissing is all fine and great-but I don’t want to think about it as a mile marker. I’m not giving my first kiss away to anyone who doesn’t deserve it. And if I have my way, it won’t be until I’ve met my future husband. Because it *should* mean something.

Anyway, bravo, Ben. I respect you for honoring your future wife enough to do that for her.

wynnston: I’m glad you, um, got the point of my post. Yay.

Joni: I’m glad you agree. (Though now that I think about it, am I ever glad when people disagree with me? :)) I like the mile marker imagery. Kissing is not a good way to define a relationship.

In fact, one of my friends recently called off her wedding because she realized the relationship was almost entirely physical. They found it hard to sustain conversation, and of course if you’re making out you don’t have to say anything, but in marriage you’re going to spend more time talking (or sitting around awkwardly because you don’t have anything to talk about!) than making out. Unless you plan to osculate 24/7 for the rest of your mortal lives, that is. :) (Boring!)

There are a number of girls I find very attractive physically, some of whom have expressed interest in me (to varying degrees), but with whom I find it hard to keep up a conversation intelligently. They’re nice girls, and at times I’ve thought about pursuing the relationship in spite of the gaping lack of intelligent conversation, but every time I come to the same conclusion: I’d go stark, raving mad if I were paired with someone I couldn’t talk with all the time. If we run out of things to say to each other when we only meet for a couple hours a week in class or at church or wherever, then that’s a pretty good sign that it’s not going to work out.

On the other hand, physical closeness is also an important part of a relationship. The two are not exclusive by any means. :D

True. I guess what I’m saying is that errors of balance tend to fall more on the side of too much of the physical rather than not enough. Moderation in all things. :)

I was just reading an article on BOUNDLESS that reminded me of this blog post. Its called “Biblical Dating: To Kiss or Not to Kiss” by Scott Croft. It makes one think and is in plain English. Thought you might like to read it here: http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001429.cfm

A good article — thanks for the link! I especially like this part:

In my view, the problem with asking “How far can we go?” is that if we want to positively pursue godliness, it’s simply the wrong question. What that question really asks is “How close to the line (sexual sin) can I get without crossing it?” The problem is that Scripture explicitly tells us not to try to “approach” the line at all, but to turn and run from it.

I warn you my good friend to be aware of wolves in sheeps clothing. I had a friend who took the same stance as you, but after it became public knowledge (as it has in your case) many girls looked at the situation as a challenge. They thought it would be a good competition to see who could get my friend to give in. They tried all kinds of ways to kiss him even though they weren’t truly interested. So be careful!!! But then again, maybe that’s what you were hoping for.

LOL, I have thought about that danger. So far I seem to be safe, but I’m on my guard. We’ll see. :)

My, what a blog. There is probably not much that I can say, that hasn’t already been said. With that said, how should I start this comment?

Ben: I agree with you 100% Yes it may not be an easy choice to keep. So what? That doesn’t mean it won’t be worth it. If it feels like the right choice then go for it!

I think that I was 11 years old when I came to the same conclusion (and made the same choice), and nothing I have seen or heard since has changed my mind. In fact the more I have seen and heard, the more I agree with that youthful decision.

I have known many who have waited to kiss till their engagement (not kissing till that point in their relationship didn’t keep them from coming to know and grow close to one another. It didn’t keep them from knowing that they were compatible with each other or feeling attraction to one another. Not kissing didn’t keep them from gaining the Lords seal of approval for their future together. It didn’t detract from their relationship in any way, but I believe that it did add to it.), and not one has reversed their engagement afterwards because that first kiss wasn’t perfect (after all that’s what practice is for.).

If this has been the case with couples who have waited to kiss till engagement, how does waiting a few more weeks till the alter change things? Admittedly this choice is not for everyone. I do believe however, that it is right for some of us.

Lastly for those who don’t wait till the alter to kiss (which I do not believe is a sin.) All I can say is:

K- keep
I- it
S- simple
S- stupid

First, I want to say that you are right on with this. I am not, like many of you, a lip virgin. In fact, I’m not a virgin at all. I am a single mom because I let the physical side of my relationship go too far. I just want to say that you can never be too cautious about avoiding temptation. I’ve made this same commitment to God, perhaps for a bit of a different reason than you. He commands us to be obedient and so the best thing to do, as my friends put it, is pull a 180…Turn and run the other way! Some people may think it extreme to avoid even kissing before marriage, but I say if you need to be extreme to stay under Christ’s control, BE EXTREME! He will surely ALWAYS bless you for it!

Julia: Good points. :) (And yes, this is certainly a lengthy thread. Who would have thought!)

Christy: Thanks for your comment — I really appreciate it. I agree, that whatever sacrifice is necessary to stay on Christ’s side of the line is not only worth it but imperative for our salvation and exaltation.

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

You’re worried about *kissing* ??!!

You should change the name of your site to “Uptight Mormon”!

And if you have all eternity, why not just kill yourself now and make everyone happy? Non-mormons won’t have to deal with you and you’ll be happy in “eternity” without us non-mormons! Or are we “infidels” to you?

To paraphrase Shadowlands:

Uh, I’m a Mormon, and different cultures have different modes of discourse. I need a little guidance here. Are you trying to be offensive, or merely stupid?

:)

Nice paraphrase, Ben.

Wow, this thread won’t die, will it? It’s almost enough to make me throw in my own two cents about kissing.

While I’m not sure waiting to kiss over the altar is the most prudent decision ever, comments like our friends Dave’s are almost enough to make me strongly encourage you in your resolve. After all, we have plenty of people who go too far the other way. It’s kind of fun that Mormonism fosters a culture where people try to err on the other side.

At the same time, I’ve known plenty of couples who kissed before marriage and even before their engagements, and they were just fine. They had beautiful, wholesome relationships. I don’t think complete abstinence from bilabial clicks (sorry–couldn’t help myself) before marriage is particularly moderate. I mean, it’s good to be careful, but being paranoid about crossing the line into inappropriate feelings isn’t exactly healthy either. It seems to overemphasize the potentially negative aspects of kissing (that it can excite certain passions that shouldn’t be excited outside of marriage).

I am glad, though, that your motivation seems to be respect for women. There are too many fellows who will kiss a girl at the drop of a hat, never mind that for a woman a kiss is a very emotionally intimate gesture. So, I hope things work out for you whatever happens. :-)

But, Ben, if you do decide to wait, why don’t you at least kiss the girl before you’re in the sealing room in front of 20 people, even if it’s just the night before? Maybe it’s just me, but first kiss in front of lots of people–even if it is in the temple? Not romantic. And people will be expecting you to kiss during the reception and for pictures and stuff. Not that you’d have to, but drat, that could be awkward and stressful–trying to figure out the emotional and physical complexities of kissing on one’s wedding day? Ugh. Not a way to make it a special experience, in my opinion. Waiting till getting engaged kind of makes sense. Waiting till marriage doesn’t so much.

But I don’t doubt that you and your companion will figure out what’s best for you, and I do feel a little silly giving advice on this subject, since my own experience is rather limited.

Ben,

I must say it has been a very interesting read. Every time I read another declaration of righteous desire and restraint by one of your readers I think, “Hurrah for Israel!” and envision the scene in the movie The Other Side of Heaven. Kisses aren’t handshakes; they are sacred exchanges that provide glue to a marriage relationship. Good or Bad…who would know the difference if there were nothing to compare it to? If all you have ever tasted were a lemon, you would most likely develop an acquired taste for lemons. And if all you had ever tasted were an apple or an orange, the same would be true. But, once you have tasted two or more fruit, it would take an idiot not to know there is a difference. Would you really want to know that your performance was being compared to another? Engaged couples do break up so “after the ‘Yes’ at the alter” is a wonderful safety rule.

There is a wonderful secret that accompanies the birth of a child. When you have your child placed in your arms for the first time, there is an endowment of love placed into your heart for that child. It is not your love, but a portion of God’s love that you are given for his child; you are added upon. It is God’s way of providing the love, nurture, and care that his children need from their earthly parents throughout mortality. It is the glue that provides for work and the sacrifice even of your own life if necessary to ensure the safety and well being of his child. And, a new endowment of love comes with each subsequent child.

God has provided a special kind of glue to strengthen a couple in a marriage. It is physical and kissing is a part of it. Kisses are sacred. If you keep your kisses for your eternal companion, your kisses will help seal your union in a way that a common diluted kiss can not. You see intimacy in marriage is 90% emotional/intellectual/spiritual and only a very small amount physical. When couples try to make sexual relations out to be purely physical or even mostly physical, no matter how good the technique, it will never satisfy. Promiscuity, pornography, and sexual deviancy abound in the wake of a famine of pure holy intimacy. And, where there is an abundance of pure wholesome marital intimacy, there is no physical or sexual famine.

Ben, If you qualify, God will give you an endowment of love for your partner that will surpass any human understanding that you could possibly have at this time. It is worth the wait. God has promised it. Have faith in him. It is worth doing right. “Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thy own understanding. In all thy way acknowledge him, and he will direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes; fear the Lord and depart from evil,” Proverbs 3: 5-7. Foolish men will mock you. Think nothing of it. You are a son of God.

Katherine: Yes, this thread has achieved immortality, it seems. :) Good comments. And I do agree that publicizing the first kiss would be stressful, so I’ve modified my decision to instead be no kissing till the ring’s on the finger. And after that, moderation, because it’s very, very easy for an engaged couple to slip and fall into serious transgression. At any rate, all of it will be worked out with my girlfriend/fiancee, of course, since I absolutely do not want to be pushing my own ideas and beliefs on her. If she agrees with me, great. If not, then I respect that, and we’ll come to a middle ground that works for both of us.

J: Well said. Kisses are indeed special, even sacred as you say. And the fact that intimacy in marriage is 90% emotional/intellectual/spiritual is one of the things I’m most excited about, to tell the truth. We let our bodies rule over us far too often.

Ben,

This is my first time to your blog and I’m impressed that your following is so inline with what you say. I was expecting all sorts of crazy comments, but people are surprisingly accepting and supportive of your choice.

My wife and I kissed before getting married. I don’t know if not kissing at all would have been a good or bad thing for us, but I certainly agree with you and everyone who has said you should go with what the spirit tells you to do.

I dated a girl in high school for about 9 months and we never kissed. It was kind of nice, really. Thinking back, I felt a stronger connection to her than several of the girls I dated and kissed in college. Now that I’m married, I can think back and honestly say that the kissing, while very fun, exciting, etc., wasn’t a very big part of my decision-making process, nor was it a significant factor in any of my relationships. In other words, (and this may seem quite obvious, but lots of people don’t agree with what I’m about to say) you should be able to grow close to and choose the girl you want to marry just fine without kissing or getting too close physically.

Welcome, Bart. It’s good to hear an echoing voice. :) And you’re right — while kissing is fun and exciting (at least I imagine it is), it’s not the be-all, end-all of relationships, and it’s entirely possible (I think) to remove it from a non-marital relationship without permanent damage. (Conversely, I think it’s absolutely necessary in marriage.) I’m looking forward to kissing, yes. But more than that, I’m looking forward to the rest of my relationship with my wife — our friendship, our interests, our thoughts and discussions, our challenges.

This topic is absolutely preposterous. If it wasn’t quite as extensive, I’d be convinced it was a joke.

I’ve met a minuscule number of people that believe in pre-marital abstinence. I was completely unaware, however, that anyone would even consider waiting until marriage to kiss (?!) a member of the opposite sex, much less actually do it.

Kissing… is nothing. Enjoyable, sure; worth waiting for, absolutely not. Sex is a *basic biological function*. As with many other animals, male-female interaction among humans is completely normal and natural. There is nothing sinful about sex, touching, kissing, etc. Be safe and get some experience! Your wives-to-be will appreciate it. Sex *really* isn’t that big of a deal, and building it up to be this huge thing will likely result in disappointment. When sex is good, it’s about 10% of your relationship; when it’s bad, think 90%.

Please don’t get me wrong; I have the utmost respect for beliefs and values that I do not share. If this is *actually* what the majority of the contributors on this page believe and practice, that’s great for you. I don’t dispute that the moral lessons and security blankets the concept of religion casts over a vast number of people in the world today are extremely valuable. This aspect of religion, however, will always remain a great mystery to me. It’s a deprivation that simply isn’t necessary.

A lie told to yourself often enough becomes convincing over time.

*Be safe and get some experience! Your wives-to-be will appreciate it.*

Appreciate it? You are delusional!

*Sex *really* isn’t that big of a deal, and building it up to be this huge thing will likely result in disappointment.*

I had two husbands with your kind of *experience*. It was as appealing as used chewing gum covered with pig vomit. Neither of them could keep a commitment. Neither was capable of intimacy. One went through 4 wives and at least 15 mistresses that we know of.

He has 14 children with broken hearts and ruined lives. He is old now and his current wife disappears for weeks at a time and can hardly wait until he dies. The other has had 3 wives and a string of live in girlfriends (we’ve lost count). He lost the respect of his children, lost his self respect, has attempted suicide, has drug and alcohol issues and has 9 children who grew up with broken hearts in reduced circumstances without a father.

The only thing that these experienced losers’ EXWIVES appreciate is the EX in front of our wife label.

Please don’t get me wrong; I know that this is a great mystery to you. I am just stating the facts resulting from the lives of two men who believed like you do.

J basically said it all. The only thing I have to add, MN, is that we seem to be coming from two different perspectives — you’re looking at it from a naturalistic, scientific point of view, whereas I’m looking at it from a religious perspective, based on the teachings of God as found in the Bible and other scripture. God only approves sexual relations between a man and his wife. Sex outside of marriage is sinful. But the world has forgotten that.

Ben since this doesn’t actually affect me, I don’t honestly care whether you do or not. I guess for your sake I hope the girl waits that long. =) By the way, I’m really bored in my MFG class, and I’m making a bet with myself that the girl kisses you…. So when this all goes down, let me know if I win my bet with myself… Either way I’m a winner.

Daniel,

A lady would never take that which does not belong to her and a gentleman would never kiss and tell.

J,

Someone with such strong opinions shouldn’t need to hide behind one letter:) I pretty much agree with you, unfortunately according to you most females aren’t ladies and most males aren’t gentleman. I know of many females that have kissed a guy, and many males (and females for that matter) that have told.

Be honest with yourself, more and more females are taking more initiative with guys, because guys are sucking more and more at it. This is due to people wasting time… blogging, txt messaging, chatting, i-ignoring(i-pods).

Hey J, I’m gonna call you Julianne, I agree with you.

By the way Ben, I like the sites, nice clean look.

Daniel,
My name is Janet Walgren but you can call me Julianne if you want to. I thought that most people on Ben’s blog knew that by now. I am 60 years old and my first post was intended to be anonymous tease because my daughter was staying up all night reading Jane Austin. I had never blogged before and I wasn’t quite sure if it was ok for me to comment. After my first comment Ben encouraged me to start my own blog and has encouraged me to continue to comment on his blog. He says that he likes comments on his blog and posts that take on a life of their own.

I certainly have strong opinions which are expressed more on my own Wordpress blog, Reflections. See Ben’s *blogs I read* for the link if you’re interested. My opinions come from a life full of hard experiences - some that almost cost me my life. I have raised 6 kids and 7 step children (5 males and 8 females.) I have spent 11 years listening to guys talking locker room smack in dojos and 60 years listening to knitting circle gossip from women so I kind of know what’s going down. I am not a Victorian prude or a judgmental snob. I am compassionate, wise and have a strong testimony and a good understanding of life.

Now that I got that out of the way, my comment wasn’t talking about consensual kissing. For the gentlemen it was targeting the *notch on the belt for an ice-cream with the roommates* behavior. And, for the ladies, I was talking about seduction to start a guy’s chemistry set because it is easier than developing a sound mind, a delightful personality, and a strong character that attracts worthy attention.

P.S. Be careful using the word *most*…that’s a STRONG word. LOL:)

Daniel: Thanks on the site look, and LOL, I’ve often wondered if some girl would try to kiss me precisely because of this post. Thus far I’ve made it through unscathed. (But I agree, there are girls out there with the initiative to get some action. One girl at my high school came up to some guy in my class who’d never kissed anyone and she went right ahead and kissed him. I think he’s still going through therapy. :P)

J: As to whether or not girls ought to be taking initiative, I’m torn between both worlds. (Not just talking about kissing now, but relationships in general.) I’m rather old-fashioned in some respects, and so of course it’s the man’s job to do that sort of thing. But then again I’m rather modern in some respects, and I don’t really feel it out of place for a girl to take initiative at times. My old roommate married a girl who’d asked him out. So it depends.

Hmm…This is Awesome!
Finaly someone agrees me with!
I am 18 years old and throughout my life i had kissed around 6 people, mostly before the age of 16. Last summer God spoke to me and said, If you save your next kiss for marriage, i will bless your future, your kids, and marriage. So i had nothing better to do than obey. I met the guy that I am going to marry, this year, and we are waiting for the day we kiss at the altar. He respects that more and more every day. :D
way to Go BEN!

While I still think it’s fine for someone to save their kisses if they feel it’s the right thing for them to do, I have to say that I’ve now changed my mind. I still think the principle holds — not being too physical before marriage — but waiting till the altar isn’t exactly in my plans anymore. But kudos to those who do wait. :)

Ben–

Way to go, sir! I also think this is the first blog I’ve seen (aside from mine) that deals with Mormon Single Life :). So Kudos! If you haven’t already, you might enjoy reading the sequel to “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” as well–it’s called “Boy Meets Girl.” Very good read if you like Josh Harris’ writing.

Anyways, my next post is going to link back here, so take a look-see in a day or so at my site if you’re interested. I’m also adding you to the blogroll :).