The problem of pursuit

The scenario: Guy likes girl. Girl isn’t interested.

Option A: Guy pursues girl anyway. Girl either 1) eventually becomes interested or 2) calls the cops and gets a restraining order.

Option B: Guy leaves girl alone. Guy either 1) finds another girl who is interested or 2) remains single for the rest of his lonesome life.

This is all purely hypothetical, of course. :) I can see arguments for both sides — for example, my cousin originally wasn’t interested in her husband, even thought he was a jerk, but he was persistent and she eventually fell in love with him and now they’re happily married. On the other hand, if the girl really isn’t interested, then the guy’s persistence will end up feeling like the buzzing of a gnat, and it won’t take long before she swats.

You see, people’s autonomy is something I value a lot. If a girl isn’t interested in me, then I have to be totally, utterly smitten to keep pursuing her (and thereby ignoring her autonomy), and there has to be at least a little flicker of hope that she might change her mind. That’s only happened once, and that poor little flame was readily extinguished. Since then, I find myself unable to pursue any girl who’s not interested. I just can’t do it. And the reason why I bring all this up is this: what if pursuit would have changed her mind? Am I losing out on a golden opportunity because the rust is proving hard to scrape off? If that’s the case, then I think I’d certainly be able to pursue, even knowing that she wasn’t interested (heck, it happens in the movies all the time ;)). But then it’s so much easier to just find a girl who is interested at first. Not such a great story, but less stress and thus longer lifespan.

When is pursuit warranted? What thinkest thou? Or ye, rather. :)

Oh, and again, all of this “I” and “me” stuff is just for ease in writing. I’m talking on an abstract level here, not at all connected to the real me in the real world with real girls. Right. ;)

The scenario: Girl like guy. Guy is oblivious.

Option A: Girl attempts to pursue guy anyway or at least help him be less oblivious to what is right in front of him. Guy either 1) eventually realizes girl likes him, but doesn’t give her the time of day and/or runs and hides, because it wasn’t his idea first. After all guys don’t like even semi forward girls, 2) eventually guy realizes girl likes him, and guy realizes he like girl. He then pursues her…happily ever after, or 3) guy remains in his oblivious world complaining that no girl likes him, and thus it is pointless to pursue.

Option B: Girl leaves guy alone. Girl either 1) finds another guy who is interested and doesn’t mind being pursued…happily ever after, 2) waits around forever for a guy to realize he likes her and then actually pursues her…happily ever after, or 3) remains single for the rest of her lonesome life. (At least she has the millennium ;-)

As Granddad, would always say, “PPPG”. Persistence pays pretty good.

Fight the good fight until thou art slapped with a restraining order.

Julia: Good thing this is a purely hypothetical realm and we’re not talking about any one guy in particular. :P Let’s just say that the appearance of oblivion may be a shade and a mist. Not all things are as they seem. Nor are all men as dense as they seem. Ha!

Connor: LOL, sounds like a plan. Congrats, btw. Seriously. :)

I don’t think pursuit will instantly change someone’s mind.

There’s got to be some chemistry. There’s got to be some attraction– physical and otherwise. If there’s no initial interest, there’s not much chance things will go forward unless, as Connor so excellently pointed out, one or the other parties is persistent enough to make some magic.

Don’t hold your breath though.

You (you, Ben, you Connor, you sixline, you Julia, you YOU) deserve love. It’s up to you at what point you ‘give up’ on unrequited love. It’s up to you. No one has the right answer when it comes to this sort of thing. Just remember that you have to love yourself before someone else will.

Uncle Sixline’s advice: You can fall in love with a lot more people than you think. There’s no one true soulmate. Just be confident, be yourself, keep looking, and you’ll find someone. If you don’t, then don’t sweat it. Leave it in God’s hands.

Sixline/ Conner: Great advise

Ben: Of course we are speaking in a purely hypothetical realm :-)

I have four daughters- with four different blessings:
Daughter 1- You will choose a worthy – She did.
Daughter 2- You will know him when you see him – She did.
Daughter 3- You will choose from the many – there were lots of em.
Daughter 4- Carefully consider when the time is right…not yet.

When I encourage action, I am told, “Not yet…I don’t know if I have met him or not, but if I have met him obviously the time is not right.” She is very concerned about being the right person when the time is right. She is also a very observant study when it comes to the possibilities. When most of her friends were rushing to the alter she told me that she wanted a person her own age and anyone that she would be interested in was on a mission right now. (We were managing a retirement apartment community at the time and she saw the loneliness of a lot of old widows.)

When her friends told her that they wanted to marry a doctor, she told me that she wanted to marry someone that would be home a night. When her friends described handsome, dashing and daring, she talked about someone who would be solid, stalwart, faithful, intelligent, learned, interesting, solid and proven true who would love the Lord first and most and she could come in a close second. When someone suggested that she change to be more in the game, she observed that someone who would change for her would change for another if she were gone and she wanted to know what kind of person would be raising her kids.

When people tell her that the train is going to leave the station without her, she tells them a train leaves the station every hour and that she wants to get on the right train and end up at the right destination rather than getting on just any old train and ending up in the wrong destination. At 23, she is the frustration of all of her siblings, the old maid of the family and totally unmoved. When anyone tries to push her, she tells them that God knows her address and her phone number and when the time is right, the right man will do his job and come calling. It is all curious to me. I think that when the right guy comes calling, he might have to be a little patient because she might be a little bit slow to recognize that he is the right guy. Perhaps he is shy, perhaps she is frightened. I know that he will have to pass a very through examination. But then the right guy will be up to the challenge.

So all you ladies and gentlemen, hypothetically speaking of course, why aren’t the princesses or princes interested? Perhaps you should do a post date survey and write it down. Getting to know yourself is the first key to success. When one of her dates called and asked me if he should shave for the occasion, I told him “absolutely, there’s nothing worse than hairy eyebrows, but you can skip below the necktie because she won’t be seeing that anyway.” (It was a blind date to the prom. He asked her if he could ask me out…Ouch! But don’t be afraid to be your own gate-keeper just do it with a sense of humor nicely.)

There seems to be a larger issue here that goes beyond dating (not that dating isn’t the most important thing in life :-P), which is whether or not you should pursue a goal after it appears that the door is closing or has closed on that opportunity. That’s a very good question–one that I’ve pondered often. When is opposition a sign that a particular path is not the best option, and when is opposition just opposition? I don’t think we’re always meant to know and we just have to use our wits as best we can.

Going back to dating, though–the problem obviously comes from the fact that it’s not a job, an internship, or a research grant (or what have you) we’re pursuing–it’s a person. People change their minds, they have feelings, they think, and they make choices. All those factored together make it a very tricky situation. However, given the fact that most of us likely don’t have a “soulmate” whom we have to seek out, I think that as long as we’re trying, it probably doesn’t particularly matter if we lose out on an opportunity because we didn’t push a bit harder. If we’re in a situation where persistence is of eternal import, I think we’ll be given a compelling feeling that we need to persist. At least that’s been my experience. I’ve had friendships, for example, that I could have let drop, but I felt compelled to continue them. Those have been some of the most important friendships I’ve had, and I think I was guided to persist in them. Other friendships have dissipated, and I’ve felt like that was an okay thing to happen even if it made me a little sad.

I do support the idea of taking risks, though. By all means, try to avoid being annoying, but there’s nothing wrong with asking a guy/girl out even if you’re dubious about their level of interest. And I don’t think avoiding being annoying at all costs is necessarily the best policy (though it’s the one I feel more comfortable with). Whichever side you typically err on, though (being annoying vs. letting the matter drop even when there might be some potential), is a personality style that I don’t think is going to have eternally negative consequences.

J: An old maid and a frustration to all her siblings at 23? I’m glad she doesn’t feel like an old maid. Provo culture is odd that way. I had a roommate once who, as her twenty-first birthday approached, confided to us she’d be an old maid in a few weeks. I think she felt that way because 1) her mother was married at 20 and 2) most of the rest of us in the apartment were 19. Personally, I don’t think of women as old maids until they’re at least in their forties. But maybe that’s just wishful thinking, seeing as how I’ll be turning 26 in a little over a month. I do feel on the older end of the Provo social spectrum, but I agree with your daughter. I fully expect to marry a wonderful man (exactly right for me :)) within the next several years. In the meantime, I’ll continue to develop as a person. When the right fella comes along, I’m determined he’ll find an even better me than he would have had he come along earlier. Of course, I also hope to grow with my husband, so we’d better find each other before we’re perfect. ;)

And now back to the topic at hand. As Katherine said, pursuit in this case is tricky because we pursue a person–and, unlike ideas or inanimate objects, people react to our actions (or inaction). In the case of dating, where we normally don’t know the person well, it’s difficult to predict reactions and just as hard to gauge them. Where things become problematic is when there’s a hoped-for reaction and the other person doesn’t give it. As dense, as oblivious, and as confused as we often are, humans are quite good at reading body language. When a guys asks me out, I can usually tell whether he’s asked because he wants to get to know me better or because he’s already decided he likes me. If I haven’t decided yet how I feel, I much prefer the former type of date. In the latter case, I feel the pressure of all his hopes and expectations. I often start to wonder if he’s really getting to know me better or spending the time making sure I really do fit with his pattern for ideal womanhood. That’s an uncomfortable place to be, at least for me. Of course, if you’ve been friends for awhile and already know each other well, it’s a different story. In that case, one party or the other may perhaps need a little nudge to encourage a slight shift in perspective. So, I guess my advice would depend somewhat on your definition of *like*. If like equals already strong feelings, I would say go ahead, but try not to have too many expectations. If the state of liking hasn’t progressed that far yet, pursue away!

On your mark, Get ready, Get set, GO! Ok Ben, pursue to your heart’s content. But I wouldn’t carry it to the swatting level. That’s a real turn off. You could end up with an ecclesiastical restraining order banning you from your ward.

When I told Roger, No way! Leave me alone! Roger was dense, oblivious, and more than slightly confused, as Ann put it. When he climbed over the last five rows of pews to pick a fight with the guy I was sitting by in sacrament meeting, I got locked in the bishop’s office while the good brothers in the congregation wrestled Roger and got him under control. Yes, I have lived an interesting life and provided a lot of fodder for conversation. Kansas City Second Ward definitely had something to talk about.

I think there is another aspect to this discussion. When confronted by a fork in your road it might be a great opportunity to ask for direction. True, people are unpredictable. None of us are mind readers, but Heavenly Father has a pretty good idea of what is in the best interest of His children. Sometimes, pursuing someone who appears to be uninterested can lead to a great friendship. Other times, persistence can overcome miscommunication. Then again, what one person perceives as a lack of interest could be another person’s insecurities or obliviousness. Or, persistence might lead to a restraining order. Though we don’t always know where we are going our Father in heaven does. Not all paths lead to instant gratification (in the form of a instant happily ever after), but all things will be for our profit and learning, which will lead to joy in the end.

Also, the motives behind the “pursuit” need to be examined. Theoretically speaking, if an individual persists because he enjoys the chase or the chase of the unattainable makes him seem like he is trying (but he isn’t interested in succeeding) he might want to take a step back and analyze his behavior. If, however, his pursuit is sincere he might end up with a story much like that of Marianne Dashwood and Colonel Brandon, Lizy Bennet and Mr. Darcy, Emma Woodhouse and Mr. Knightley… Don’t you love Jane Austin? She remained single, but she upheld a great standard. Then again, J’s story has potential. ☺

Good heavens…an old maid at 23? No offense, but her frustrated siblings should find something more important to worry about. My mom and dad were both married at 19, but not to each other. Those marriages didn’t work out so well, and they didn’t find each other until she was about 30 and he was about 35. But they found each other. I’m in no hurry, because I want to get it right the first time. Besides, my mom said she won’t let me get married until after I graduate from college.

Ben, you’re thinking too hard about it. Just keep doing what you’re supposed to be doing, and it’ll work out the way it’s supposed to. Congrats on gradumacating.

Ah! LOVE…
Love is not attraction. Attraction is not love. What happens when that which you are attracted to in the person, fades? Perhaps he gets a spare tire, and she a double chin. Hopefully the eternal relationship is more solidly based than on attraction.

I also think Chemistry is romantic hogwash, as well. Chemistry is nothing more than a hormonal response. Animals have hormonal responses too. Hormones are like switches that can switch off as well as on.

One does not fall in love, like one falls on the ground. If it were really possible to fall in love, then one could fall out of it. The reality is much more subtle. Remember, for ages and ages, most marriages were arranged. In a way, love is a choice. SO, when people say they have fallen out of love, they really are choosing not
to love.

In a real sense, love is a fruit of the spirit. If one draws near to the spirit, his views will be much clearer, and more likely to see a potential eternal companion. Because, if you are drawing closer to God and she is drawing closer to God, then likes attract right? …. oh no, there is that attraction again!

I graduated from High School in Hawaii, and joined the church my senior year. I was 7 months pregnant with my 7th child when I arrived for the classmates only part of my 25th reunion. There was a dashing young man there. He had been very popular when I was in High School. As we spoke, he said he had a crush on me in high school. I was shocked, as I had very few dates. SO I asked him why he never talked to me or asked me out. Then sheepishly he replied that he was afraid to. Quite frankly, with hind site, I am so gald he did not. Yes, he was very dashing, and very popular. He is also a drunk. I am glad I came to Utah to BYU. Glad I waited until I was 22 to find the love of my life. Though at the time, with roomates marrying at 19, I thought I would die single. Oh, my vision wasso limited!

My first Devtional in the Marriot Center was President Kimball’s address on marriage and divorce. He counseled that we look for a mate that has as much in common with us as we can– social, economic, education, race, etc… I believe that in a marriage many things pull at you, you do not need extra issues to deal with. He also said something about any two righteous people can make a good marriage. So, the key is “righteous,” and similar or common ground. I would add that though my husband and I found much common ground, that there is enough difference that our differences compliment each other.

Pursue or not pursue, that is the question. To quote: Oh be wise, what can I say more.

Donna, You are absolutely right on target:)

Wow. If there’s one way to get a lot of comments on a blog, its to ask for dating advice. Jeez. I about got carpal tunnel in my wrist just scrolling down this page. But enough about that.
My advice is short and simple. Don’t try to be something you’re not. If you’re not comfortable or good at pursuing girls, than just don’t. Seriously. If the time ever came when it felt natural to pursue, then it is probably a good thing, but if you can’t seem to figure out how to pursue, then… it’s a stupor of thought; let it go. Have faith, my friend, and the right girl will be introduced into the equation at the right time.

I’m gonna go with James on this one…my hand hurts. Seriously though, this was such a great entry to look over and just glean such wonderful words of wisdom from. Love is hard but then often the things most worth it are hard, right? Take for instance your education, Ben. You have worked so very hard for it and you have achieved a great deal. And it’s been worth it, correct?

If we want something bad enough, strongly enough, we can work towards that goal and it’s been my experience that the sincerest desires of my heart often coincide with what Heavenly Father seemed willing to grant me. Obviously my love life is nothing spectacular but I’ve learned a great deal in the last few years (and honestly just from this post) to know that it only gets better. :)

Ben,

Congrats, btw. Seriously

Thanks. If I’ve learned anything from the experience thus far, it’s that Heavenly Father definitely knows the right person for us. Though the impatient part of me can’t stand the phrase, “in the Lord’s due time” really is the best way to do things, though it’s hard to accept.

But man… when the Lord blesses you, he really blesses you…

Julia,

You (you, Ben, you Connor, you sixline, you Julia, you YOU) deserve love.

I disagree (see why here). We don’t really deserve anything. We are such unworthy creatures… Yet the Lord blesses us immensely in spite of our fallen state and unworthiness. It’s incredible.

Donna,

Love is not attraction. Attraction is not love.

I agree. Stephen Covey makes a great point in Seven Habits, that being that love is more a verb than a noun. If somebody “falls in love”, they can just as easily “fall out of love”. Rather, true love is an action. “Choose your love, and love your choice”. It takes work, dedication, service, and effort. It’s not passive as many would like to think (speaking from highly limited experience, of course…) :)

LOL ;D What a nice post, i guess it’s one of my favorites!!! I feel the same way. When i dont feel any kind of connection whith a guy, i just dont go out, simply because i dislike when someone does it…

Ben, I really liked how you said that people’s autonomy is something you value a lot. That is so important! However you go about the pursuit or non-pursuit (you’ve received some good advice) hang on to the autonomy principle after you are married. My husband was very controlling. It became much more problematic when our eight children were trying to grow up. I have now been divorced for about 17 years and “unrighteous dominion” was the main cause. Why I married him is a factor here but I plan on addressing that on your “lip-locked lust” post sometime soon.

I love this about President Hinkley by his wife, Marjorie: “I am very grateful for a husband who always lets me do my own thing. . . . He never insists that I do anything his way, or any way for that matter. From the very beginning he gave me space and let me fly. What a man!” (Deseret News 2003)

Don’t worry, it’ll all work out! :)

Wow, lots of comments here. :)

sixline: I don’t think pursuit will instantly change anyone’s mind, and I agree that the initial chemistry has to be there, even if it’s subconscious. At any rate, it’s easier to find someone who’s interested in return and doesn’t have to be persuaded. :) As for deserving love (to answer Connor’s point later on), I think what you’re getting at here is that Heavenly Father wants us to have love. And finally, yes, it’s in God’s hands. I just need to be more patient. :)

J: More and more I’m realizing that people really do have to follow their own heart. Other people are always concocting theories and ladling out advice, which can often be a good thing, to be sure, but in the end we must do what feels right for us. And that won’t always be in line with what everyone else thinks is right for us. For example, lots of people have encouraged me over the years to spend more time hanging out. Every once in a while I try, and occasionally it’s fun, but almost inevitably I realize that it’s just not for me. It’s not something I do. I don’t think it’s wrong or sinful or anything like that; it’s just something for other people and not so much for me. And in spite of all the arguments to the contrary, I really don’t think that hanging out will lead me to my wife, at least in my case. (And if I’m wrong, then I’m sure the Lord will nudge me into place to make an exception.)

Katherine: You mean dating isn’t the most important thing in life? ;) You’ve put the essence of my post into a nicely compact sentence: “When is opposition a sign that a particular path is not the best option, and when is opposition just opposition?” That’s precisely what I was getting at. If it’s just opposition, then let me at it — I’ll pummel it down until I come off conquerer. But if it’s a sign, then why waste energy in the wrong direction? I think you’re right about it not necessarily mattering, and when there’s something eternal at stake, about the Lord urging us to press on.

Ann: The growing together thing is one I look forward to a great deal, which is why I was mildly disappointed to graduate sans-spouse — it would be so romantic to go through school together! Oh well. At this rate, I’ll have already bought a house by the time I find my mate. “Sorry, honey, all the hard stuff’s over. Guess it’s just smooth sailing from here on.” :P (Yes, I know.)

Speaking of strong feelings, I have the unfortunate curse of pre-imagining everything out in advance — starting almost as soon as I first see the girl. In theory it makes sense, visualizing your future life together as a couple and seeing if it feels harmonious and good or if there’s anything jarring, but in reality it makes things awfully difficult. I try to stop myself, but it’s something I do with everything in life (since pre-visualization often does help one meet with success), and it’s a hard habit to break. That’s why I’m almost wondering if I’ll have to be blindsided by marriage. We’ll see.

J: Yeah, restraining orders aren’t any fun. :) While it’s often really hard to tell if certain signs mean a girl is interested, I think I am really good at reading the signs that mean she isn’t interested. And for me, if I know the girl isn’t interested then I almost immediately lose all interest in pursuit.

Heather: The enjoyment of the chase of the unattainable is folly and insanity. And while I do enjoy my fair share of both folly and insanity, that particular malady is luckily not my burden to bear. My sole motive in pursuit is to start a family. (And with the right girl, of course.)

Haley: Thanks. :) And while I know I probably shouldn’t focus so much on marriage — and I really don’t, in all honesty — at the same time it’s what I want more than anything else in life, even more than books, and so naturally it gravitates to the forefront of my thoughts on a frequent basis. I want the companionship that comes with marriage. I want to have someone by my side, someone to be with me in the valleys of my life (as I will be in hers) and in the mountains of joy, someone to share my life. Without a wife, I am not a whole man. I mean, sure, I’m doing fine as a bachelor, and it’s not like my life is devoid of meaning or happiness, but I still feel like jigsaw puzzle who’s missing half the pieces. I need a woman by my side to be complete, to become who I was meant to be. And unlike most goals in life, there’s not a whole lot I can do about it. (Well, I suppose I could just marry any old someone, thus fulfilling the letter of the law, but that’s not what I’m after.) I do try to kick it away to the back of my mind as often as possible, but it doesn’t stay there. ~sigh~ I guess the upside of all this is that when marriage finally does come for me, the years of waiting will have made it that much sweeter. Because believe you me, I am going to be so grateful when I finally kneel across the altar with Mrs. Crowder.

Wow, I didn’t quite expect all that to come out. :)

Donna: I disagree. Chemistry is there for a reason. Granted, it’s not enough to keep a marriage going — love is a verb, all of that — but it’s still very important. And in my experience, whether or not I’m attracted to a girl is almost always determined in the first few seconds or minutes of meeting her. Sometimes time can change that, and I will say that I’ve grown to love (more in a friend/sibling sense here) some of my female friends and have found that that fondness makes them seem more attractive to me, but it’s still not enough to cross the threshold and convince me I should pursue. Perhaps it’s different for girls. Perhaps it’s even different for most guys. I don’t know. But what I do know is that chemistry is the catalyst that starts a relationship for me, and I can’t see myself marrying a girl without it.

James: LOL, yes, me too. And in retrospect, I can see that one time it did feel right to pursue, and I did, even though the girl wasn’t interested. And more recently, I wanted it to feel right to pursue, but it didn’t, and so I did nothing. And the girl will soon be on a mission. Funny how that works out. ;)

Mali-Wan: Aye, the things that are most worth it are often hard, which is what led me to the original question — is the opposition to pursuit a mere difficulty to be overcome, or is it a divine seal of disapproval? I’m willing to work hard for something if I know it’s something I should be working hard for. :)

Connor: I’m so counting on that. :) Sixline was actually the one who said the bit about deserving love, not Julia, and up in my reply to his comment I mentioned what I think he meant. As far as actually deserving anything, yes, we’re unworthy creatures, and yes, the Lord’s blessings boggle the mind. And I agree that love is not the same thing as attraction. But I don’t think it’s fair for anyone to demand that a guy should marry a girl he’s not attracted to.

Caroline: It’s turned out to be quite the post, hasn’t it. :)

Shirley: That quote has stuck with me ever since I first heard it. And I’m terrifically excited to let my wife fly — that’s one of the amazingly beautiful things about marriage, that my wife will actually be a real person with her own thoughts and opinions, not just a clone of me. While there will almost certainly be many, many similarities between me and her, I’m almost more looking forward to the differences — they’re more interesting, at any rate. Undiscovered country. I want a wife who does her own thing, whether it’s writing or knitting or music or art or gardening or whatever else she wants to do. Mmm. :)

To pursue or not to pursue that is the question. I just have to say that it makes the girl’s life a lot harder (in most cases) when the guys don’t pursue. Who’s leading here anyway? Do the guys want the girls to do the pursuing? Grrr! of course there will always be the weirdos that pursue to the extreme. (Just venting, I guess)

Oh boy, as my mom would say “that (meaning my last comment) sounds like sour grapes”. I guess that is why I should not leave comments when I’m tired and in a bad mood. :)

Wait, I’m sorry. My mom doesn’t often say that, actually I just heard it for the first time the other day. And I thought it was such a good fit, I couldn’t resist using it. But now, I’ve not only made (and am still making) a fool of myself, I’ve brought my mom into it too!
Okay, I better go to bed, a good night’s sleep works wonders. (except when you leave silly comments like this, that make it hard to sleep! j/k) Ben, I’m sorry, this was such a good post too. If you want to do me and you a favor, you could just delete all three. Am I gonna regret this? Maybe we’ll see you back here tomorrow night. ;)

LOL, I do feel bad for all the girls who want to be pursued but aren’t. And for all the girls who didn’t get to go to prom. And for all those who sit at home Friday nights wishing they weren’t. I wish I could wave my magic wand and fix it for all of them, but I can’t. And nobody try throwing a starfish at me. I already know.