Mars and Venus

I just realized with a very pleasant surprise that all of the Victoria’s Secret ads have disappeared from Facebook — and I think it’s been a few weeks now, too. Maybe it’s just for the BYU network, but let’s hope it’s sitewide. Alleluia! :)

Changing topics, it’s funny how it’s totally legit for girls to say, “I love you” (or “Love ya” or some variant thereof) to their girlfriends, whereas if a guy were to say that to another guy, alarm bells would go off everywhere. It’s just something you don’t do — it’s even more taboo than chitchat in the men’s room.

I’m not saying this because I have some suppressed desire to tell my male friends I love them. I don’t. (With my female friends, on the other hand, it’s a different story. ;)) No, it’s just interesting to observe female behavior and think how creepy it would be to see guys doing the same thing.

Physical contact, for example. Some types — wrestling and punching and stuff — are kosher for guys, but others — scratching backs, backrubs, any kind of caress, and some embraces — are off-limits unless you’re related. And even then, it’s not the sort of thing you do in public if you can help it.

We’re talking American culture, of course; other cultures have different rules for what is and isn’t okay. I mean, in France guys can kiss each other on the cheek! That’s so foreign to my experience. I think I’d pass out if some monsieur came up and smooched me. Either that or slug him. ;)

You have obviously been thinking about this a bit too much. Hey, don’t you have any recent pictures posted? Other than Thailand pictures, I see no other pics of you or what you’ve been doing, etc. Either i’m missing one of your many links, or you need to post some!

Clarification: Pictures of you and things you’ve been doing, not just of BYU or bugs or stuff….

I grew up in Hawaii. Everyone hugs everyone. Guys included. This was not about attraction, or sensuality, but it was a way people expressed both valuing of others and acceptance. It was really hard to get used to the cold, do not touch, mainlanders.

Even with all that, I must say I felt really weird when a Polynesian friend (a girl) took my hand to take me on a tour of BYU Hawaii campus when I was a freshman. After cultural patterning was put to rest, on my part, I realized it was cultural and felt honored. Amazing what happens when you care more about accepting another person’s friendship than you do about what stranger might think.

America is so influenced by Northern European cultural conditioning. We are we too touch me not as a society.

I hug and say “I love you.”

I’m ok with it.

I’m with sixline on this one. Real men cry, hug, and hold on tight. They say “I love you.” Have you ever seen photos of soldiers on the battle’s front after the fighting is over? They cry, they hug, and they hold on tight and don’t let go of each other. They love each other. It is called survival of the spirit. It is part of the natural man and the innate to the nature of heavenly beings.

I often wonder why some men have so much trouble with this. Do they question their own masculinity? Who gave them their rules? Who set their pattern? It is a pity that there are so many gay messages out there to stifle a man’s spirit… what a sad way to isolate a man and take him down.

At the convention in Washington D.C. last week, I saw hundreds of friends of the same as well as the opposite sex meet and greet each other with hugs and kisses. I enjoyed many hugs and kisses myself. I had a man cry on my shoulder as he told me about loosing his girlfriend to cancer and saw other men comfort him with hugs and touches.

Ben, quit worrying so much about being a man or you might talk yourself out of being human.

Whoops! I guess Heather used this compter last to comment on your blog. The last comment was from Janet not Heather. Oh well, Heather sees guys hug all the time too. We are a very hugging family.

Whoops again. The last sentence in the first paragraph should read “It is part of the natural man and innate to the nature of heavenly beings.” The extra the is Heather’s fault. Wow, now I feel better! LOL

My best male friend and I say “I love you,” without irony or shame. But we’ve been through enough over the better part of two decades to have earned the right.

There’s also a certain subset of my friends who I’ve been saying “I love you” with since high school. Granted, it was usually in the form “I love you, buddy” and often in some kind of funny voice, so there was some irony to it. And we always enjoyed our share of homo-erotic humor to boot, but we had a very close group bond. Even though we live far apart now, when the stars align and we’re together again, it’s like old times, and the fact that we say “I love you, buddy” isn’t a source of embarrassment, by any means.

That doesn’t hold for my interaction with the larger male community, but then, girls don’t just randomly hold hands and say they love each other, either. It’s a mark of closeness and intimacy for either gender, though perhaps arguably less so for certain people.

It’s an interesting question why men are afraid of showing affection toward other men, let alone saying “I love you.” It’s an overwhelmingly non-sexual phrase though, I think–those who engage in casual sex certainly avoid using it lightly, because it endows sex with additional layers of (potentially unwanted) meaning. I’d guess that by pure statistics the phrase is uttered far more with reference to storge, philia, or agape rather than eros. So is that what men are really afraid of?

Tyson: But don’t you realize how boring pictures are of me typesetting stuff? ;) No, really, I’ll try to take more pictures of me, even though I have a strong aversion against it. Without a catalyst, the reaction usually doesn’t happen. But I’ll try. (Why am I hearing Yoda’s voice in my head now? ~sigh~)

Donna: Indeed. Personally, I’m an affectionate fellow and I wouldn’t mind losing the social stigma to touch. I’m conditioned by it, of course, and so it would take a little while to rub off, but I’m all for it. (Thailand is more of a touching society than America, by the way, but not nearly as much as the Polynesians.)

sixline: Good. :)

J: Oh, heavens, I’m not really as worried about being a man as you think I am. Keep in mind that my observations here were of what’s socially acceptable (generally), not the way I think things ought to be. I’m fully committed to staying human. :)

Rikker: For my group it took the form of “I love you, man,” again with the funny voice. At times I’ve wanted to express the love of friendship, but I’ve felt constrained to using other ways of saying it (like “I’ve missed you”) or stifling the urge entirely. Which is a shame. As for men being afraid of storge, philia, and agape, and the answer to why men shy away from saying “I love you,” I really have no idea. It’s giving me a total blank. Hmm.