Hilary: We’ll work on that. :)

I for one, don’t like seeing bikinis, I rather they have a one peice. but, I don’t feel ashamed about that.

We were born without clothes, not with them.

As for sports, it is apperant you have never tried to run. When I ran track there were bathing suit uniforms for some of the high schools. The less clothes you wore the better. Any extra weight would slow you down alot. And the breathing of the fabric was nice too. It allowed a good amount of sweat to evaporate.

It is not easy to play hard with street clothes.

Another thing comes to mind. Art. I know this is a tangent, but, With your current thought process, it is no wonder BYU students were mortified when the greatest sculpure of the modern era had some statues here. The RoDin statues were art, but the students at BYU were childish about it. Particullary of The Kiss.

How unfortenate.

You are so ashamed of the human body you can’t look on art without blushing.

Do you not realize that some of our greatest lds artist drew *gasp* nudes? Greg Olsen, James Christensen, Doug Seegmiller (a professor at BYU) draw nudes! Oh no! Lets go burn their houses down, because if the lord wanted us nude we would have been born nude, not with clothes.

I personally have drawn nudes, and can tell you its all business. No one is making jokes, or staring at anyone. No one is getting horny. And this is with no clothes on.

So a one peice I do not have a problem with. And you shouldn’t either.

Molly: I agree that one could easily take modesty to an extreme, or at least something that the rest of society calls an extreme. But I don’t really know that that’s bad. It doesn’t hurt anyone else, so if someone feels like that’s what’s appropriate for them, I say more power to them.

Anna: First off, I took no offense. :) Humor is quite okay here, and for that matter my tongue is in my cheek half the time. Now, I do agree that immodesty is more about attitude, but I think that regardless of one’s attitude, there is still some clothing (or lack thereof) that is immodest. Walking around nude is definitely gross, even if you’re a full-fledged believer in the nudist philosophies and you’re not doing it to show off. :) There’s a balance. As for my expression of disgust, it was purely aesthetic — most bodies fall short of that Platonic ideal. But that’s based on a first glance, which is all one usually gets (or wants) at the swimming pool, since I for one would feel uncomfortable staring down some lady in a bathing suit. In other situations, though, even non-Platonic bodies have a beauty to them that’s transcendent and goosebumpy. Familiarity can work wonders. I’m pretty sure my disgust (which was partly tongue-in-cheek, I might add) wasn’t stemming from a fear of any potential sexuality, since as far as I can tell, I don’t look on sexuality with disgust, but rather with caution tape.

J: Yes, we need to beware of lightmindedness. I don’t think, though, that this was a situation where that line was crossed.

Heather: I agree that dialogue and disagreement are great. Truth can stand up against a battery of opposition, and since that’s what we’re all seeking for, a host of devil’s advocates can only get us nearer our goal.

Nathan: While I do think that the Egyptian dress code is a bit old-fashioned and provincial, at the same time I’m 100% for them keeping it if they really believe in it, and by “they” I mean the women. If it’s a male oppression thing, then I say bag it. But if the women are doing it out of religious or even cultural belief, that’s completely fine by me, and I can respect that even though it’s “extreme” by my own standards.

Katherine: I agree with you in principle. Constraints often do create a stigma around the banned thing that makes it even more desirable. (Girls want what they can’t have, right? :P) But at the same time, you do have to take into account male hormones, which seem to run on their own account. Yes, maturity is learning how to deal with those drives in appropriate ways, but there are plenty of younger boys (I’m thinking primarily of teenagers here) who are still figuring that out, and I don’t think it’s entirely fair to parade scantily clad women in front of boys who get turned on and don’t know how to react in appropriate and moral ways. I mean, they’ll come across enough of that on their own, in the normal course of life. Why make it harder for them?

Bart: LOL, but running is so…painful! :P I don’t think I mind swimming itself, if I can just go without all the immodesty attached. I was a pretty good swimmer as a kid, actually. (Now, though, I have contacts, and if I wear them I’m afraid they’ll slide off when I open my eyes underwater, and if I don’t then I can’t see anything.)

But some of us have volunteered for a lifetime calling as a member of the LDS church. Part of the promise made at baptism is to stand as a witness of God at all times, in all things and in all places. A dress code is implicit in this. If you don’t agree with this assertion you can track down the two boys from my junior high who asked me about our magic underwear. They can tell you all about it.

I am not saying that we should wear a burka to the swimming pool, but I am saying that in every setting we have a broader audience that we have promised to be a witness to. As very little of what we communicate is verbal (or written) I personally believe the majority of our promise is fulfilled through what we do, wear and the example we set.

Isaiah 3-4 speaks to the “daughters of Zion” about their dress and grooming habits. I would recommend reading it. Please note the intended audience and the group of people being discussed. Now personally, I would rather humble myself than experience some of the things in store, but it is the promise of what we can have if we follow his council that I would like to emphasize: “And the Lord will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defense” (Isaiah 4:5). Modesty in dress brings the spirit and acts as a defense.

Now obviously, some people did not appreciate my comments. That is okay. I love dialogue because it teaches us more about ourselves, each other and other cultures than we could ever learn from interacting with a group of people that agree on every point of conversation and action. I also appreciate frontal assaults when people want to debate. But there are some elements of this debate that I view as sacred. So let me reassure some of you – I have said all I intend to on the subject in this context.

My concern with your line of thinking, Ben, is that by focusing on the sexual aspects of an uncovered body, it sexualizes the body. An uncovered body is not a sexual object unless someone perceives it that way, which seems to be evidenced by Adam and Eve’s nakedness in the Garden. I think it’s healthy to avoid temptations, but I don’t think it’s healthy to be preoccupied by them–so much so that you avoid normal human situations and interactions (such as swimming). If you (I’m using “you” in the general sense) associate a naked body with sexuality, then you’ve lost your ability to look at things with a critical eye. When you do encounter an uncovered body, rather than seeing this body as a person, you will automatically see this body as a sexual object and thus automatically have sexual thoughts. You’ve given this situation the power to affect you more than it might otherwise would. That’s my concern. That said, I’m not advocating throwing people into tempting situations. I just think that becoming preoccupied with avoiding potentially tempting situations can be problematic and paradoxically make the temptations worse.

(warning: tangent ahead)

What we should probably focus on, rather than prescribing a set of hemlines and necklines (though these guidelines can be helpful), is cultivating a modest attitude in men and women. It seems to me that the young men and women who take advantage of swimming situations to flaunt their bodies are usually not maintaining modest attitudes in their normal attire, even if their normal attire is considered “modest” by North American LDS standards. But we tend to ignore this fact and are generally satisfied with a young woman as long as she’s wearing clothing that most men don’t find tempting. If she’s not tempting to men, then she must be modest, right? I think we can do better than that. Immodesty, especially for women, isn’t a sexual issue so much as it’s a confidence issue. Cultivating self-respect and self-confidence in women will do more to encourage them to cover up than will telling them that their uncovered bodies are sexually provocative. I don’t have a problem with giving young women an easy hemline/neckline/sleeve line set of guidelines to follow. I’ve found it to be quite useful. But it would be nice if more people were willing to address the deeper issues that are merely manifested throught immodest attire.

It’s been a long time, just thought I’d read what was up and then decided to make a comment. I hope you’re well.

First, Anna, I didn’t find your comments to be out of line at all–and you don’t deserve to be picked on for them. In the context of Ben’s comments, you certainly weren’t picking on on him.

Second (my real point):

As a part of my studies at BYU I went to Cairo, Egypt to study Arabic. I lived there for several months. I developed a great respect for that people and that land, which though not perfect, has many people who ernestly strive for the right.

Dressing standards were significantly different, and much more severe than in the west. What every woman writing on this blog wears everyday is considered exceptionally loose and immodest. Likewise, many men (any who wear shorts!) are also dressed immodestly. I remember the Mormon girls being offended when they were told bluntly that they looked “just like other westerners.” Here they are regarded as paragons of modesty–and are. Even today I often feel under dressed in anything other than long-pants outdoors. Kind of like how I always have to pour other people water before myself (read: Thailand).

While in Cairo I traveled to Alexandria (on the Mediterranean). We went to the beach and I found it somewhat of a surprise to see Arab women, dressed from wrist to head to toe, with only their faces uncovered in the water. No doubt, some even more austere clergymen believe that the female form, though covered but wet, is immodest because it makes their clothing cling to their bodies. One of the girls with us, who got in, though wearing a long sleeved shirt and long pants was groped by somebody while in the water. This is mostly because of the eastern perception that western women are… well I won’t explain this all the way. This comes from movies, as well as frequent disregard for the culture by tourists.

There is much more to this story, but no space to tell it. Indeed, books have been written on related subjects. I am NOT trying to attack Egyptian society and culture. I almost didn’t write this, because it seems a travesty to leave out so much that is good and beautiful and give only a small portion which will almost certainly be incorrectly understood due to lack of context. But I hope the point I am getting at will be somewhat clear.

What I am getting at is that this is a subject which needs to be treated with a great deal of deference and respect. It is easy to go overboard in either direction. There are general guidelines found in the “For the Strength of Youth” pamphlet.

For one, feel grateful that we can choose how we dress and what we are comfortable with.

For another, feel grateful that we can choose who we associate with on the basis of whatever we like.

I, for one, am so grateful for the LDS woman and all she does and is. I mean this, and I would not change her. I’m also so glad they don’t run around with only their faces or even just eyes uncovered! I’m so glad that they can enjoy the pool like I do in the summer (however they choose to do it). As you might imagine, few women dare the water in Egypt.

One last thing: don’t confuse loneliness with hormones. That leads only to self disappointment, rather than comfort which is needed and which the Lord wants us to have. I speak from experience, not by way of insult. We’re all in the same boat. “It is not good for man to be alone.”

Cheers! Or should I say, “ma’a salaama”

(PS: I will not reply to any statements regarding this post–if I have offended, I apologize, “it was kindly meant.” If I have uplifted, I am glad. I have used enough space and time of others possession.)

Undoubtedly, there are a few individuals out there who scream modesty out of disgust for the mortal body. However, I seriously doubt that this is a problem here. There is such a thing as a wise innocent. The human body, a sacred gift that all of us have been blessed with, has become objectified in the crudest way possible to promote the sheer physicality and sexuality of the human form. As a result, people are forgetting that our bodies are a symbol of our divinity and that mankind was created in the image of our Heavenly Father. It saddens me to see so many people unaware or forgetful of their intrinsic worth.

To be quite frank, it makes my stomach turn to see people reduce such a precious gift into a fleshy display of misguided “confidence.” When a person truly understands that the body is a fundamental ingredient to the soul they start to recognize the value of their body. When they understand that protecting the sanctity of their body is an integral part of protecting their spiritual health, they start to value their body. When someone understands that their body is a transcendental gift beyond price, they learn to treasure it.

What does one do with a priceless treasure? One guards it. What happens when someone flashes a role of $100 bills? Most likely, that someone is robbed, tricked, or cheated out of a worldly “treasure.” That is the common outcome of casting a pearl before swine. Likewise, people who understand the value of modesty are not under obligation to act like swine when pearls are cast. Why do people guard worldly treasures while they flaunt eternal treasures that are beyond price?

It seems to me that the issue is not someone’s comfort in viewing the display of the sexuality and physicality of the body. Rather it is the wisdom and care some people choose to take in protecting and encouraging others to protect their eternal assets. It is not a matter of fear or lack of comfort with ones own sexuality, but it is a matter of wisely choosing to defend their innocence in thought, word and action so that they can celebrate the creative powers of the body in the right time, place and context.

What happens when one knows their worth and takes precautions to respect and guard its value? They become more beautiful. Their patience and caution protects them from scheming individuals and preserves them for a wise and sacred purpose.