Good out of evil

Once again a C.S. Lewis Society meeting has graciously provided a blog entry for me. :)

A thought and then an epiphany. How could a good God let bad things happen? Till now, I’ve just assumed that it’s part of the test — that God planned it in, planting trials and obstacles in our lives for our growth. Life is a time of testing and probation, so that makes sense.

But what about abuse? There are other examples, of course, but I have a really hard time believing God plans for his children to be abused, even if it is for their good. That’s just messed up. That’s not the God I know. And yet we talk about God’s hand in our lives, pushing things into place, maneuvering events and contacts in precisely the best way that will turn us from fallen humans into gods and goddesses. What gives?

I’ve thought a lot about this, but it wasn’t till tonight that I finally hit upon an explanation that made sense to me. First, God can see the end from the beginning. Past, present, and future are rolled into one for him. As C.S. Lewis says, time is like a line drawn on a piece of paper, and God can see the whole paper.

Second, because God sees it all at once, he knows what evil things will befall us in the future. He doesn’t cause them; he witnesses them. We still have our agency — and so do the people who make evil happen. Sure, God could force everyone to do good, but that dumbs down the universe and turns this from real life into a puppet show.

Third, and here’s where the epiphany happened for me, because God is good, and because he loves us, he takes the misfortunes that happen to us and finds some way to turn it to our good. Abuse is evil, but God has the power to take such a horrible thing and magically bring some good out of it. That’s what God does. And if we’re open to it, he can do that with every bad thing that happens to us in our lives. Sure, we’ll get more good out of some things than others, but the amazing thing is that God can get anything good out of something bad. It’s a miracle.

God doesn’t make evil happen, but he saves us and redeems us by taking whatever does happen (which is largely up to the agency of other people) and transforming it into good. Which means that God isn’t some mischievous, conniving gamemaster intent on putting us through hell “for our good.” God isn’t running around casting obstacles in our way so we’ll trip up and fall. The obstacles come of their own accord; in his infinite wisdom and power, though, God can take whatever does come and help us grow from it.

As Paul says, “all things work together for good to them that love God” (Romans 8:28).

Thoughts?

What do you make of cycles of abuse, where parents abuse their children as they were abused? Or where children who are abused abuse other children?

Maybe you know this already, but if you’re interested in this question you should check out information on theodicy, which is the branch of philosophy that seeks to reconcile the concept of suffering with the concept of a benevolent supreme being. Wikipedia’s article is a decent enough primer.

I concur. He doesn’t purposefully make our lives miserable. From my experience and observation, He doesn’t even intervene–for good or bad–too often. He will sanction good decisions, but usually those decisions still have to be made first. And He will bring down the consequences of bad decisions.

As far as abuse–I think the scriptures are pretty clear (Jacob 2, Moses 7…) that it is not tolerated. Period. And yet, the atonement is sufficient to heal those physical, emotional, psychological, and even spiritual wounds. And the atonement–both the healing and the enabling power–is the only way to break the cycle.

But God’s inaction is tolerance. He tolerates it, but punishes the perpetrators for it later. He doesn’t cause cycles of abuse, but he tolerates their continuance as he tolerates everything people do. And often abused children become abusers themselves, even while they are still children themselves.

And even though I can understand the principles underlying God’s reasoning, I still find it disturbing. I find it easy to understand how people refute either God’s existence, his benevolence, or his omnipotence, or all three. It takes a lot of faith to accept that God really does act this way. And yet the evidence is before us.

Perhaps it is because of our finite perspectives that all we can see is tolerance. Meaning, we only see this life, and we cannot easily see what is under the surface of those around us. Firstly, I feel certain that there are eternal and undeniable consequences in the next life. Secondly, those who abuse are punished in this life in that they are alienated from God. They do not enjoy the blessings of the spirit. They do not have peace in their lives; they cut themselves off from it. This sounds to me like a living hell. Both of these consequences are hard to see or measure, so from our human eyes it appears as tolerance; I do see how so many can doubt. But His ways are not our ways; His thoughts are not our thoughts.

Whenever I wonder at God’s ability to allow suffering I am reminded of Moses 7. It never fails to astound me that He weeps–He, the God of heaven and earth–weep as He sends down his fiery wrath because “they are without affection and hate their own blood.” And when Enoch sees with this new perspective, with God’s perspective, his heart swells wide as eternity and all eternity shakes. Perhaps it seems that God does not see or care. But, again, I feel certain that He does and that His fiery wrath will come soon or late and justice will be served. There is no real tolerance for abuse of any kind for those who do not repent.

I was trying to elicit thoughts on the fact that people are thrust into these cycles of abuse while still innocent from sin. I find it simplistic and unsatisfying to throw all of the blame upon people who are, really, victims. And because of that I don’t think I believe that God will necessarily punish them very harshly, insofar as their circumstances stacked the deck almost insurmountably against them.

Why does God allow children to get so terribly mistreated in a way that essentially ruins their chances for a normal life, and thereby may affect their own children in the same utterly way, and so forth? Why aren’t they given a chance? How accountable is someone in that situation? I think canned answers trivialize the detrimental effects of abuse on the abused.

It’s not a question that can be trivially answered, for me.

Ben, amen.

Rikker, “Why does God allow children to get so terribly mistreated in a way that essentially ruins their chances for a normal life, and thereby may affect their own children in the same utterly way, and so forth? Why aren’t they given a chance?”

This is a question I’ve studied and I disagree that they don’t have a chance for a normal life. They do have a chance, through the Savior, to have their scars healed and live good, productive lives. That doesn’t take a away the pain they go through as children or the additional challenges they must overcome.

1 Cor. 10:13 says “but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.”

I realize, having been raised by righteous, loving parents, that it’s easy for me to say others can overcome their horrible childhood circumstances, but I believe they can. Otherwise, God would not be just. Nothing except our own disobedience can hurt us eternally. If abuse reaches a point where it’s more than a person can take without eternal damage, God will put an end to it. One way of doing that is to allow the child to die and come home to loving parents.

When I hear accounts of child abuse, it makes me sick, almost to the point of being physically ill. That’s why I can understand God destroying entire cities. I can imagine looking down from heaven and saying “No more. You aren’t hurting any more of my babies. I’m bringing them home right now. And while I’m at it, you all get to come back for judgement, and you have a lot to answer for.”

You also said, “I don’t think I believe that God will necessarily punish them very harshly, insofar as their circumstances stacked the deck almost insurmountably against them.”

We read, throughout the Book of Mormon, that the Lamanites will be less accountable on judgement day than the Nephites because of how they were raised. Much of the iniquity of the Lamanites was answered upon the heads of Laman and Lemuel. Yes, God does take circumstances into account.

There are multiple things in life that are very difficult to overcome and make it back to God. Abuse is one example. Another thing that’s hard to overcome is wealth and fame. Just look at (insert name of almost any young celebrity) and the mess his/her life is in. I don’t understand the reasons behind everyone’s individual circumstances, but I do trust God to make a way to escape for anyone who lets Him.

There are many experiences in this life that I hope I never have to experience, the foremost probably being rape. I cannot see how one would even begin to put one’s life back together. But I do believe that, horrific as that would be, God would able to make me whole again.

1 Cor. 10:13 says “but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.”

This is one of those scriptural technicalities that makes it easy to blame people for their circumstances. When I look at the difficulties some people face, I tend to think it’s more like “who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able, but if he does (or make it really, really hard), he’ll go easy on you.”

My question has never been a binary one. I never claimed that they “don’t have a chance” for a normal life. I said “essentially ruins” their chances for a normal life. I have no doubt people can rise above their circumstances. But so many never do, and when they’re not responsible for getting themselves into the bad situation to begin with, it’s not so easy to explain things away, for me. It’s not their ultimate accountability for their actions I’m so worried about, because God takes our circumstances into account as you say, but rather I think it’s worth discussing on why he allows it to happen at all. At this point I can do no more than chalk it up to my limited perspective, because it certainly seems that for so many people, mortality is so fraught with pain and destruction, and apparently without any advancement. I’m also unsatisfied by dismissals along the lines of, “well, I guess he was more/less righteous in the pre-existence,” but then maybe that’s the only argument we’ve ever managed to come up with to make sense of the world.

It’s also worth considering how relatively few people ever hear the gospel in this life. For a significant portion of humanity, mortal life seems purely a technical necessity, lacking any of the grandiose significance the scriptures assign to it. You get a body, exist for somewhere between seconds and a century, perhaps never hear the gospel, and die.

Really highlights the significance of the post-mortal phase. We seem to have intense tunnel vision with respect to mortality. Which is understandable. It’s all we feel like we know, after all.

Why are some children born into situations of abuse? If God intervened right before a sin was going to be committed, there would be no evil, no judgement, no victim, no test and no reward. God doesn’t hand out grade cards with F’s until after his children fail their test. Some children will stand as witnesses to testify against their abusers, others will change the course of history. These children are called transition children.

http://janetwalgren.wordpress.com/2008/02/10/the-transition-child/

Rikker, I really did not mean to trivialize this issue; I am sorry. I mean that sincerely. I do think it is very complex. I do not know the answers. I have a very dear friend who has suffered significant abuse in her life and who struggles constantly against the consequences. As I try to help her and love her and support her, I constantly find that I do not understand what she has endured. I do not see the world the way she does. Sometimes it is very
frustrating for me. But that is a small price to pay considering I have not had the life she has. As I have seen her trying to break out of the cycle and even heard her declare that it is not possible to be healed in this life, I have thought prayed about this issue. My conclusions or answers, however, have been simple. They may appear even simplistic. I am sorry for that. I do not understand all things, but I know that God loves his children. I know that the atonement is sufficient for every infirmity. I know that God is just. I agree that yes, the deck is stacked so perilously high against so many. Why or how God could do such a thing, I don’t know. It was stacked perilously high against Jesus Christ as well.

A quote that has been very meaningful to me, and that I posted on recently on my own blog, may or may not apply here. From my perspective it does.

“I do not believe sheer suffering teaches. If suffering along taught, all the world would be wise, since everyone suffers. To suffering must be added mourning, understanding, patience, love, openness, and the willingness to remain vulnerable” –Anne Morrow Lindberg

The fact the people suffer is inevitable. To some degree, we all will. It is what we do with it that matters most. Whether or not you are a member of the church or even religious at all. We all have the light of Christ buried in us that helps us judge between right and wrong. Despite society or family or past experiences, I still believe in the human capacity to rise up and change. And I believe God loves his children. He is loving, and merciful, and just.

Again, I am sorry if my previous (or even current) responses seem simplistic or trivialized. It is not my intent to trivialize the suffering and pain of others. And yet, the reason and the solution for so much intense pain and suffering still seems simple to me.

I appreciate the discussion. Lest some worry, I’m not having a crisis of faith or anything, I just enjoy the thought processes. Helps me think outside the incredibly small box of my own experience and comprehension.

I do like that quote, Carly, and if I came off dismissive of your responses, it wasn’t my intention. You’re right that the ultimate solution is simple. Sometimes I just find it hard to wrap my brain around how difficult the lives of some people seem to me, even people I know well. It seems like it’s easy to stay faithful when surrounded with such opportunity and bounty (but not–whether fortunately or unfortunately is a matter of opinion–fame and riches). Answers that seem simple make me to want to dig out the underlying complexities, to ponder the hidden nuances.

If I’m lucky, I might find myself an iota or two wiser than I was when I started thinking about it. Or at least have some new perspectives from which to consider the issue.

Ben I really appreciate this post. You really DO get it:) …I can’t believe I just said that.

Carly, the atonement will take care of everything if people repent and are willing to come unto Christ; however, the process that allows us to to find good when evil strikes does not guarantee that a full healing is possible in this life. There are some things that will not be healed in this life. I know that from personal experience and an inspired priesthood blessing.

The atonement was physical, mental and spiritual; Christ descended below all things so that he could succor his people. To try to understand on a purely intellectual level the horrors that others have lived reminds me of the three student social workers who were laughing and talking about a football game while they were standing in a food stamp line so that they would know what it felt like to be in the shoes of their future clients, or like the manager who took her department out for a farewell lunch for several workers that had been downsized. Conversation, laughter and congeniality stopped abruptly when the manager announced, “This is fun! We should do this more often.

I applaud everyone’s desire to understand. It is praiseworthy, but you will probably never understand - Thank heavens! Unfortunately, I do.

I would not trade my experience, knowledge, understanding and testimony for a life without trauma, violence and heart break although I wish there would have been an easier way. But then, so did Christ! And, my suffering was but a drop in the bucket comparatively speaking. I do know what it is like to have a gun cocked and held to my head. I do know what it is like to have a knife held at my throat. I do know what it is like to be raped and beaten unconscious and to find other women in my bed with my husband, I do know what it is like to have my children kidnapped, I do know what it is like to have a daughter want to end her life because she had been raped, I do know what it is like to have a husband come home from war so emotionally scared that he can not love, I do know what it is like to have the father of my children hold a stick of dynamite and threaten to blow up my home and family, I do know what it is like to be homeless with four little children, but I DO NOT know what it is like to bleed from every pore. I have walked with angels and I know it. My children have walked with angels and they know it. My sons who were kidnapped at a young age do not know God loves them, but they will. My peace is that they are like Laman’s children and their sins will be visited on the head of their father, or grandfather, or… where ever the cycle started. I have been told that they will join the church whether in this life or the next and I know it is true because God does not lie.

If you want to help your friend, help her get on with her future life instead of trying to help her get over her past life. some things will hurt thirty years from now but if the pain is diluted with happiness, peace and righteousness, the bad memories will rarely come to mind.